Advice needed on wireless dilemma

[cynicaster]

Recently I’ve been learning about off-camera flash in a more “structured” budget-studio type setup with modifiers, etc. and I’m really enjoying it, but I’m starting to get fed up with the limitations of the built-in wireless system on my T3i. I love how I’m able to set the controls right there at the camera, but the “line of sight” requirement for the system to work—as well as its poor reliability outdoors—is driving me nuts so I was looking into some radio triggers.

As mentioned, I have a T3i, and one each 580EX-II and 430EX. I have access to a 320EX as well, if I need it.

Here’s my problem: if I go the radio trigger route, I’ll be forced to use my 430EX at full power, unless I spring for an ETTL-compatible wireless system.

I’m not a pro, never will be, and the portraits for family and friends I take a few times a year—a scenario that accounts for only a small portion of my photography—make it hard to justify hundreds of dollars for Pocket Wizards or other such “pro” products, just to overcome a limitation with the 430EX. Especially since I’ve read over and over how budget priced triggers from Yongnuo and others are working well for lots of hobbyists like me.

So if the goal is to achieve a two-light setup, with my current kit as the starting point, what would you do? Some options that come to mind:

• Sell the 430EX and replace it with a manual-capable flash, buy the Yongnuo triggers
• Buy a reasonably priced third-party flash that has manual capability, buy the Yongnuo triggers, keep the 430EX as a third light
• Bite the bullet on ETTL capable triggers

I’m a big sucker for a favorable “bang for your buck” factor, because I’m frugal (ok, cheap) by nature. However, within reason, money isn’t really a problem in this instance; I don’t mind a more expensive answer if it truly is the smartest answer for my particular situation. In case it’s not obvious, “go with Pocket Wizard because it’s what the pros use” is not a good enough reason to justify tripling or quadrupling the price—I need to see the extra value it would bring to my specific situation.

Thanks in advance
Matt

 

[Derrel]

#2 seems like a good idea. For off-camera flash set-ups, reliability is always nice. With that in mind, the simpler and more low-tech, the better. Meaning that TTL is not needed. WIreless adjustment of flash power is not needed. RELIABILITY, and dependability is worth a huge amount--as you can no doubt attest to, with the way the line-of-sight need and the sometimes on/sometimes not status of the current setup has already driven you to seek out more reliability and more dependability.

One of the MOST-annoying,and I mean MOST-annoying things to me are modern, sophisticated speedlights that go to sleep after a short delay between firings...Gawd, I hate that "feature". Again, the lower the technology level of the flash units in off-camera, multi-light setups, the better in terms of reliability and dependability. I do not consider TTL flash exposure control to be a "feature" or "benefit" in any multi-flash, off-camera setup sacenario. I do not trust TTL to make the right decisions. I want to make the decisions in OCF set-ups. ALL the decisions. Like how much flash to output. And when to shut off the flash. And what zoom head position to set the flash to...I NEVER, ever want an OCF multi-flash setup unit flash that will zoom the flash head when the lens is zoomed.

My opinion is to go with simple, non-TTL flash units, and set the power by hand, by going up to the flash units and turning a dial (aka Vivitar 285 HV), or by sliding switches (aka older-style Sunpak controls), or by pressing +/- buttons (most newer LCD-screen control flash units).

How about Cybersync triggers?

 

[cynicaster]

#2 seems like a good idea. For off-camera flash set-ups, reliability is always nice. With that in mind, the simpler and more low-tech, the better. Meaning that TTL is not needed. WIreless adjustment of flash power is not needed. RELIABILITY, and dependability is worth a huge amount--as you can no doubt attest to, with the way the line-of-sight need and the sometimes on/sometimes not status of the current setup has already driven you to seek out more reliability and more dependability.

One of the MOST-annoying,and I mean MOST-annoying things to me are modern, sophisticated speedlights that go to sleep after a short delay between firings...Gawd, I hate that "feature". Again, the lower the technology level of the flash units in off-camera, multi-light setups, the better in terms of reliability and dependability. I do not consider TTL flash exposure control to be a "feature" or "benefit" in any multi-flash, off-camera setup sacenario. I do not trust TTL to make the right decisions. I want to make the decisions in OCF set-ups. ALL the decisions. Like how much flash to output. And when to shut off the flash. And what zoom head position to set the flash to...I NEVER, ever want an OCF multi-flash setup unit flash that will zoom the flash head when the lens is zoomed.

My opinion is to go with simple, non-TTL flash units, and set the power by hand, by going up to the flash units and turning a dial (aka Vivitar 285 HV), or by sliding switches (aka older-style Sunpak controls), or by pressing +/- buttons (most newer LCD-screen control flash units).

How about Cybersync triggers?

Thanks Derrel.

I should have mentioned, I’m not set on the Yongnuo triggers, or any other brand for that matter; I was just using that name as a placeholder for “budget trigger”.

Regarding the Vivitar 285HV you mentioned, I read up a bit about that product and it initially piqued my interest because of its reputation as a low-priced utilitarian/workhorse off-camera unit (i.e., pretty much the perfect description of what I am after), but there is a post over at that strobist blog (Strobist: The Return of a Classic?) saying that the currently available unit is a Vivitar in name only; a cheap knock-off that attempts to capitalize on the legacy but is in fact a failure-prone pile of deuce.

Anybody else have any insight on that product?

 

[kathyt]

I have some cheap wireless triggers and then I have the latest PW's. I will tell you why I love the PW's. I have 3 of them and I can use any of them on either light doesn't matter which one. They trigger ALL of the time. You can throw that line of sight thing out the window. They are a very reliable piece of gear that I use frequently that I don't ever worry about. Can't say the same for the ones I have used in the past. That is worth the price for me.

 

[Derrel]

Yeah, I was aware of that Strobist article on the "new" 285 flash...what the 285 HV flash DOES have, which is almost unbeatably good, is the amazing, "circular calculator dial" that shows flash power, ISO values, and AUTO-f/stop ranges in graphical form, which conveys more information than digital LCD set-ups can. Analog display is one area where info can be presented in a form that allows the user to easily and clearly see not only the CURRENT settings and their parameters, but also potential settings that are not yet enabled. I mention the 285HV mainly for the amazing control system it uses, and the amazing calculator dial system that literally makes it one of the best-designed flash control systems ever made.

As to the pile of deuce status...David Hobby feels the same way about the Yongnuo brand flashes, which he alleges have very high failure rates direct from the manufacturer; apparently, his retail partner MPEX.COM, is forced to test every single Yongy flash unit to weed out the numerous dead-on-arrival units that the manufacturer regularly sends out.

This is a problem now: Cheap, Chinese made, Chinese-engineered junk that "looks good", but which has very poor reliability. Cheap triggers. Cheap flashes. Dubious quality. Sketchy feature sets. Specifications that cannot be realized in the real world. Tons of defenders will tell you that the cheap stuff is "worth the price". The choice is up to the buyer. One good strategy is to, "Buy two. Or three. To ensure that one working unit will be available." I'm not sure if the 285HV has improved since the 2007 Strobist post went up, or not.

One Internet Danger to watch out for: The person who alleges that "his" cheap gear works well, and that therefore by virtue of his gear working, that no problems exist with other similar units. You will find that a lot when fanboys defend cheap junk.

 

[Big Mike]

Here’s my problem: if I go the radio trigger route, I’ll be forced to use my 430EX at full power, unless I spring for an ETTL-compatible wireless system.

I'm pretty sure that you can use the 430EX in manual mode at any of the power settings. The older model, the 420EX did not have this option.
Just hit the mode button to put it into manual mode and then hit/hold the set button until the power level flashes, allowing you to change it. Note: the flash cannot be in slave mode (that is only for using Canon's wireless system).

The issue (if any) is that it's hard to set the power because you have to push those stupid crescent buttons.

 

[cynicaster]

Here’s my problem: if I go the radio trigger route, I’ll be forced to use my 430EX at full power, unless I spring for an ETTL-compatible wireless system.

I'm pretty sure that you can use the 430EX in manual mode at any of the power settings. The older model, the 420EX did not have this option.
Just hit the mode button to put it into manual mode and then hit/hold the set button until the power level flashes, allowing you to change it. Note: the flash cannot be in slave mode (that is only for using Canon's wireless system).

The issue (if any) is that it's hard to set the power because you have to push those stupid crescent buttons.

Geeze, I think you’re right, how embarrassing. I have read a few articles and posts talking about the auto-only limitation of the 420EX and I think I confounded the model numbers in my mind.

I wouldn’t know it either way from hands-on experience because thus far I’ve only ever used the 430EX on-camera for run-n’-gun or as a slave in the built-in Canon wireless system, which allows me to use ETTL or set the power manually right on the camera (aside: it is a really nice system in that respect, I just wish it worked better outdoors and without the line-of-sight requirement).

Regardless, the info in this thread is still useful, as I will still want to go radio eventually, and possibly look at adding another light.

Thanks everyone

 

[ronlane]

cynicaster, you might consider the Phottix brand of flash triggers. I have a pair of Atlas II's and I really like them. I got the pair for about $150 and each additional is like $75-80.

They also have one that is ettl but it's higher priced.

 

[Buckster]

As to the pile of deuce status...David Hobby feels the same way about the Yongnuo brand flashes, which he alleges have very high failure rates direct from the manufacturer; apparently, his retail partner MPEX.COM, is forced to test every single Yongy flash unit to weed out the numerous dead-on-arrival units that the manufacturer regularly sends out.

As I recall, that was one particular model that had a problem, and it's likely been fixed since so that Yongnuo doesn't have to keep replacing it.

But trash the whole company and every other manufacturer in China and everything any of them has ever made or ever will make for eternity based on that one article from someone you've trashed in the past as well because you nearly always disagree with him and his choices in equipment, style, grooming habits, or whatever has gone up your exit sideways this week about him.

"Oh, that cheap Chinese stuff has such poor reliability", he cries!!! But talk to the many actual Yongnuo users here on the forum. Count the number of them who feel they got ripped off because they bought "crap" "trash" "junk" or whatever Derrel's decided to call it this week. Ask THEM if it's been reliable or not. Not that it will matter - As Derrel will tell you, just because every Yongnuo user here got lucky doesn't mean ch!t - it's STILL all crap, no matter how much the actual users disagree with that assessment from someone who doesn't use them.

 

[table1349]