Any part time photogs?

[John27]

Hey all,

So if you've read any of my other threads, you know I'm new at this! I'm writing for myself but often for my wife as well, this is a hobby for the both of us but a passion for her. Anyway, she's been saying for some time that maybe a few years down the road, she'd like to maybe do some photography on the side and 'test the waters' for maybe making it a career one day. It's a scary leap, I think she'd love to be a professional photographer, but of course that's a lot of risk for someone who works full time and makes a decent salary...

Some things I understand off the bat;

I have a little bit of experience with LLC's and small businesses, and quite a bit with self-employment taxes (I'm a Pastor paid cash by a church, so I am self-employed according to the IRS. But I still get a W-2, because my employer [who doesn't pay me, the 'franchise' does] is a non profit corporation!, so yes, screwy tax systems I'm acquainted with!) I would likely be handling that side of things for her, and we are quite aware that before she would ever start taking money, that an EIN, business license, and all that jazz will be necessary.

I also have been reading quite a bit about taking below-value prices to get business, that wouldn't be a plan either. Wouldn't be worth her time. That's not a concern.

She would be the shooter, but we have really been getting into this hobby together and so we would probably do things together somewhat, and neither of us feel like we have the abilities or equipment to start charging people money. I don't believe in charging discount rates for discount work. If you can't do it right, you shouldn't get paid for it! When she's ready to start taking her camera out for hire, it'll be when she's ready to charge market prices for it. But, it's something she enjoys and something that might become a reality in a couple of years.

So here's my question;

Do any of you work professionally as a photographer but do full-time work elsewhere? What kind of challenges do you face (other than the obvious). Do you find professional photography to be something you can do as an occasional side-job type profession?

She does a lot of pro-bono stuff now which is great experience and great fun for both of us. Her family likes her to do their Christmas cards every year (hence my thread in another category about getting some better portrait equipment), she's the resident Paparazzi at church when we have events, you know, stuff like that. She also did my baby sisters senior pictures (I think we did make my mother feed us for that shoot though! ).

So I guess more/less, is tackling part-time after-work photography something that is possible? I mean she's not looking to be a millionaire out of this, but it might be a cool way to help the hobby pay for itself a little better.

Thoughts?

-John

 

[janineh]

I started working on weekends for a wedding photographer as a little helper first and later as second shooter, while still working a full time job. If you can afford getting the right equipment and insurance etc why not.
Now I run my own business. It started with a few jobs here and there and now I am fully booked out for 2 months in advance.

Find your market and your clients and go for it!

 

[orljustin]

If it's a 'passion', why give up the decent salary and photo work you are having fun doing to slog around taking pictures of other people you don't know, dealing with clients, etc. just stick with what is working right now and is fun. There's no requirement that just because you have a 'passion' to take pictures that you have to start a business.

 

[kathyt]

I would never give up my main career either, but I started doing pretty much every type of portrait session. (families, babies, children, engagement, maternity) Then I started second shooting at weddings and once I became confident in my skills I started booking them on my own. I now only do weddings and their engagement session. I will do an occasional random session here and there if I have time though.

 

[manaheim]

Depending on how much you make and how much you can afford to make, transitioning to photography is not an easy thing to do. I recently saw photography listed as one of the top ten worst careers due to finances, competition (from people like your wife, frankly... "Hey photography is neat, maybe I can make this a career!"), and lack of available positions compared to number of applicants.

If she doesn't make a lot of money and can afford to switch to another low-pay profession, or doesn't mind doing it only part time, then she would be in good company. Lots of people do it. Heck, I do it to a very limited degree. I, too, am among the group of people that seasoned full-time pros disdain.

Can you make a six-figure salary or better with photography? Sure, it's possible. With good business sense and perseverance anything is possible. It is, however, far easier to make that kind of money in a lot of other professions.

There are tons of threads on this topic every month. Search for them and you will find astronomical amounts of advice on it. There are also skads of published books and articles.

 

[MLeeK]

Your post has got to be the most well thought out and planned thought towards making this a business that we have ever seen. Ideally that's the way everyone would see and do things.
I only work part time as a photographer-I have health issues that prevent me from working full time as well as teenagers who are incredibly active in sports. However, my part time endeavor is our higher income than my husband's VA disability and full time employment combined. How do I do that? I don't do discount work either. Well, I do but that's my charitable stuff as far as I am concerned.
My caution to you and her-this is a very time intensive profession. The shooting part of it is less than 25% of your time. The driving, setting up, editing, proofing, ordering, emailing, answering calls and general administrative duties are the bulk of it. For each hour I shoot portrait or wedding work there are about 5 hours of OTHER work that I do. When you pile that onto a full time job it's HARD. You go from 40 hours a week to 60-80 hours a week. If you have children? OH MY!
I am sure Kathy's schedule with her job as a nurse and photography is closer to 80 hours a week even though she's only part time.
Editing and computer time can be done somewhat with the family, but realistically you are only in the room with them. Your concentration is not on the family, it's on the images you're processing or editing. It's a hard, hard balance for part time warriors.
How do I balance it? Thankfully I do not watch TV. My family does. They watch TV and I process. I am there in the room with them, but we are all concentrating on other things. The kids are involved with me and my business. They often go with and do set up, tear down, assist and even shoot. I am extremely involved with their sports and activities. There's nothing I miss and thankfully with wrestling it's a LOT of hurry up and wait where we are stuck together in close quarters for hours on end. We're stuck talking to each other and interacting. Otherwise? I am not sure I could balance the amount I work and I'd be cutting back considerably.
How much do I shoot? 12 weddings MAX, 40 portrait sessions, 80 seniors (MANY of which are 1/2 hour headshot sessions) and about 150-200 mini sessions PER YEAR.

Second caution: Overhead costs are HARD to keep to a part time income level. Things like your needs for insurance, legal, accounting, etc don't go down because you work less hours. That means controlling costs everywhere else and being diligently careful about it. It's a compromise on equipment upgrades, education budget, studio costs (even home studios), etc.
You two are not at the point of going into business, but I'd definitely be compiling a business plan should you reach that point. Your plan can be written at any time and implemented at any time. You know that this is an interest for her so I'd be doing my homework and writing a VERY thorough and very educated business plan now. If you do that you'll have a plan for the million and one cautions like I mentioned and those I didn't. If you have a good plan she'll succeed well with a part time bit of business.
I've started writing a series of business posts. The first one is about where you are at, but they'll all be of use eventually to you:

Here they are in order:
http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...ng-business-building-house-2.html#post2707594
http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...g-your-codb-your-hourly-rate.html#post2758677
http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...wer-what-do-i-charge-for____.html#post2757989

 

[manaheim]

^^^ agree with all of what parrot-lady said, esp the part about your post being well-thought-out.

 

[MLeeK]

I forgot... I also wanted to share my favorite photography business blog with you. I have a feeling that you and I are very like minded when it comes to the business aspect of this and Todd & Jodi Reichman write and teach extensively on the business side of things. He's popped in here a few times to discuss different things. I admire them and their teachings very much. And nope, we've never met and I've never taken their classes and there's nothing in it for me. SOME day I will get to take their Sexy Business class, but I have to budget that in somewhere down the road! Not looking like it'll be any time soon! LOL!

Home - ...a Man to Fish...

I think it's a worthwhile read from beginning to end along with the comments. Todd and Jodi often debate in the comments with people and they do so professionally and with great wisdom. Sometimes it's even more worthwhile than their original posts!

 

[KmH]

Do you find professional photography to be something you can do as an occasional side-job type profession?

Usually not on a sustainable basis.

While someone can start part-time and ramp up to full time, maintaining a part-time photography business over a period of several years is uncommon.
The issue usually comes down to insufficient and inconsistent marketing, promotion, and availability.

According to US government statistics, a bit less than 10% of all full time photographers make more than $50,000 a year.
According to US government statistics, a majority of working photographers (part and full time) earn income below the poverty line.
Most part-time photography businesses have to be financially supported with other income. The source of that other income is usually from a spouse or a non-photography primary job.

 

[John27]

If it's a 'passion', why give up the decent salary and photo work you are having fun doing to slog around taking pictures of other people you don't know, dealing with clients, etc. just stick with what is working right now and is fun. There's no requirement that just because you have a 'passion' to take pictures that you have to start a business.

She works in real estate property management and legal assisting now, not like THAT'S a passion. If you've gotta go to work, why not do something you love? You get paid for the cruddy/annoying stuff, but at least you get to have fun part of the time when you are working!

Depending on how much you make and how much you can afford to make, transitioning to photography is not an easy thing to do. I recently saw photography listed as one of the top ten worst careers due to finances, competition (from people like your wife, frankly... "Hey photography is neat, maybe I can make this a career!"), and lack of available positions compared to number of applicants.

That's why the career aspect is less likely, but some part time spending money, or a way to help 'fund' the hobby. Maybe that's the wrong way to look at it? I could concede to that. While she might like to, I don't think either of us expect for her to drop her established career to take up photography. Actually the goal here isn't even to make money (though, again, not looking to under-cut the other photogs either, pricing would be market value, just not very many shoots per year)

In a way, I'm looking at it, right now, like this (but don't read this incorrectly as I am not comparing the validity of the two). One of my hobbies is keeping fish, I have several large aquariums and have done this for years. I breed some of the rarer fish and sell them to buy new equipment, replace equipment, etc. Effectively, the hobby is free because I earn a little cash doing it. I certainly don't do it full time, and I certainly don't make a lot of money at it. But I charge what all the big breeders charge because my product is just as good (perhaps better), I just don't sell it as often. Believe it or not breeding fish is a full-time at-home job for some people. I've known people who made well into six-figures breeding and selling fish. That's not what I do, I make a few hundred bucks every couple of months and use that money to fund the hobby. That's as far as we expect this to go. If she and I find this is something she could make into a career? Maybe! But right now we are considering the possibility of a few shots a year for a little extra money.

Your post has got to be the most well thought out and planned thought towards making this a business that we have ever seen. Ideally that's the way everyone would see and do things.
I only work part time as a photographer-I have health issues that prevent me from working full time as well as teenagers who are incredibly active in sports. However, my part time endeavor is our higher income than my husband's VA disability and full time employment combined. How do I do that? I don't do discount work either. Well, I do but that's my charitable stuff as far as I am concerned.
My caution to you and her-this is a very time intensive profession. The shooting part of it is less than 25% of your time. The driving, setting up, editing, proofing, ordering, emailing, answering calls and general administrative duties are the bulk of it. For each hour I shoot portrait or wedding work there are about 5 hours of OTHER work that I do. When you pile that onto a full time job it's HARD. You go from 40 hours a week to 60-80 hours a week. If you have children? OH MY!
I am sure Kathy's schedule with her job as a nurse and photography is closer to 80 hours a week even though she's only part time.
Editing and computer time can be done somewhat with the family, but realistically you are only in the room with them. Your concentration is not on the family, it's on the images you're processing or editing. It's a hard, hard balance for part time warriors.
How do I balance it? Thankfully I do not watch TV. My family does. They watch TV and I process. I am there in the room with them, but we are all concentrating on other things. The kids are involved with me and my business. They often go with and do set up, tear down, assist and even shoot. I am extremely involved with their sports and activities. There's nothing I miss and thankfully with wrestling it's a LOT of hurry up and wait where we are stuck together in close quarters for hours on end. We're stuck talking to each other and interacting. Otherwise? I am not sure I could balance the amount I work and I'd be cutting back considerably.
How much do I shoot? 12 weddings MAX, 40 portrait sessions, 80 seniors (MANY of which are 1/2 hour headshot sessions) and about 150-200 mini sessions PER YEAR.

Second caution: Overhead costs are HARD to keep to a part time income level. Things like your needs for insurance, legal, accounting, etc don't go down because you work less hours. That means controlling costs everywhere else and being diligently careful about it. It's a compromise on equipment upgrades, education budget, studio costs (even home studios), etc.
You two are not at the point of going into business, but I'd definitely be compiling a business plan should you reach that point. Your plan can be written at any time and implemented at any time. You know that this is an interest for her so I'd be doing my homework and writing a VERY thorough and very educated business plan now. If you do that you'll have a plan for the million and one cautions like I mentioned and those I didn't. If you have a good plan she'll succeed well with a part time bit of business.
I've started writing a series of business posts. The first one is about where you are at, but they'll all be of use eventually to you:

Thank you! I've actually read all three before starting this thread. I'm quite a 'lurker' around here. I should post more, but, I just don't have much to contribute I learn so much more just searching through old threads and absorbing information! I've seen other threads on part-time photography but many of them seem to be from people who do not work other careers, I was interested in how a person who had other full-time commitments might (or might not) be able to handle doing a few shoots a year. I think you answered that quite well.

We have started a little bit on brainstorming for a business plan. I appreciate your input on that as well!

Do you find professional photography to be something you can do as an occasional side-job type profession?

Usually not on a sustainable basis.

While someone can start part-time and ramp up to full time, maintaining a part-time photography business over a period of several years is uncommon.
The issue usually comes down to insufficient and inconsistent marketing, promotion, and availability.

According to US government statistics, a bit less than 10% of all full time photographers make more than $50,000 a year.
According to US government statistics, a majority of working photographers (part and full time) earn income below the poverty line.
Most part-time photography businesses have to be financially supported with other income. The source of that other income is usually from a spouse or a non-photography primary job.

Thanks for the advice. $50,000 is well beyond what we are intending on bringing in with this. Actually, the 'poverty line' would be pretty good, actually that would be quite a bit augmenting her salary. To be perfectly honest, making a few thousand dollars a year after expenses consistently would exceed our current goal. Perhaps when we are at that stage we could consider moving on beyond this very-part-time idea, but maybe I shouldn't have even included the 'career' line, as that's kind of a "hmm what if" thing that is so far away. She's happy in her career, and is paid well for it. The likelihood of her decided to transition into full time professional photography is very slim.

 

[manaheim]

That's why the career aspect is less likely, but some part time spending money, or a way to help 'fund' the hobby. Maybe that's the wrong way to look at it? I could concede to that. While she might like to, I don't think either of us expect for her to drop her established career to take up photography. Actually the goal here isn't even to make money (though, again, not looking to under-cut the other photogs either, pricing would be market value, just not very many shoots per year)

In a way, I'm looking at it, right now, like this (but don't read this incorrectly as I am not comparing the validity of the two). One of my hobbies is keeping fish, I have several large aquariums and have done this for years. I breed some of the rarer fish and sell them to buy new equipment, replace equipment, etc. Effectively, the hobby is free because I earn a little cash doing it. I certainly don't do it full time, and I certainly don't make a lot of money at it. But I charge what all the big breeders charge because my product is just as good (perhaps better), I just don't sell it as often. Believe it or not breeding fish is a full-time at-home job for some people. I've known people who made well into six-figures breeding and selling fish. That's not what I do, I make a few hundred bucks every couple of months and use that money to fund the hobby. That's as far as we expect this to go. If she and I find this is something she could make into a career? Maybe! But right now we are considering the possibility of a few shots a year for a little extra money.

Do you have any idea how many people come on this forum and ask a question similar to yours but with no where NEAR the good sense that you have demonstrated? (well, it's good sense in MY opinion)

I'm not a full time pro, but what you just described is exactly what I do with photography. I make a little cash to support the hobby (because ther is no way in hell I'd be able to justify a $3,000 camera to my wife when I have two others already... ) I don't want to undercut anyone, and in fact, I don't really have the time. I still have my full time gig to deal with.

I say this not to "brag", but rather because while I am saying that I think your approach is a good one... I'm also biased because it is exactly what I have done... so take it for what it is.

BTW, I also personally hope you'll pipe up more because TPF needs more people like you around.

Good luck to you and your wife!

 

[John27]

That's why the career aspect is less likely, but some part time spending money, or a way to help 'fund' the hobby. Maybe that's the wrong way to look at it? I could concede to that. While she might like to, I don't think either of us expect for her to drop her established career to take up photography. Actually the goal here isn't even to make money (though, again, not looking to under-cut the other photogs either, pricing would be market value, just not very many shoots per year)

In a way, I'm looking at it, right now, like this (but don't read this incorrectly as I am not comparing the validity of the two). One of my hobbies is keeping fish, I have several large aquariums and have done this for years. I breed some of the rarer fish and sell them to buy new equipment, replace equipment, etc. Effectively, the hobby is free because I earn a little cash doing it. I certainly don't do it full time, and I certainly don't make a lot of money at it. But I charge what all the big breeders charge because my product is just as good (perhaps better), I just don't sell it as often. Believe it or not breeding fish is a full-time at-home job for some people. I've known people who made well into six-figures breeding and selling fish. That's not what I do, I make a few hundred bucks every couple of months and use that money to fund the hobby. That's as far as we expect this to go. If she and I find this is something she could make into a career? Maybe! But right now we are considering the possibility of a few shots a year for a little extra money.

Do you have any idea how many people come on this forum and ask a question similar to yours but with no where NEAR the good sense that you have demonstrated? (well, it's good sense in MY opinion)

I'm not a full time pro, but what you just described is exactly what I do with photography. I make a little cash to support the hobby (because ther is no way in hell I'd be able to justify a $3,000 camera to my wife when I have two others already... ) I don't want to undercut anyone, and in fact, I don't really have the time. I still have my full time gig to deal with.

I say this not to "brag", but rather because while I am saying that I think your approach is a good one... I'm also biased because it is exactly what I have done... so take it for what it is.

BTW, I also personally hope you'll pipe up more because TPF needs more people like you around.

Good luck to you and your wife!

Well you can't blame people for being ambitious. But it's just like anyone who starts a business, you have to be real. I live in a small town and there are 4 locations that are all restaurants and they keep opening and closing. They will be open for a few months, then close until someone else leases the building. When you talk to people, they THINK they can make money because they are going to have better food, or better service, or clean it up. The truth is, any one of those businesses could have been profitable. What they didn't count on is, to start a brick-and-mortar business like that, you really have to be able to go without a salary for 5 years! My uncle worked for a company for 35 years that downsized, and downsized, and downsized, until they finally folded. Guess what? He put his house up for rent, bought the company, and moved in to an upstairs conference room of their last remaining location. He put a shower in the 'employee only' bathroom, and lived there. For 3 years he could barely afford to eat (and any money he DID have to pay the bills with came from renting his home, not from the business). Well, now he is on year 5 and is pulling in more than he ever did as an employee of that company, well into six figures, and the company is beginning to once again turn a profit. That's what happens with ambition, good ideas, AND being realistic comes into play. THAT is what people who want to start ANY full-time bill-paying business need to understand! It's not your ambition, your talent, your good ideas, or even your work ethic that is the problem, it's are you ready to work for free for the next couple of years?

That's why I asked these questions. We cannot make that kind of commitment to this business. But, we are also not expecting those kind of returns. I think things were answered well here. We're not in any hurry. But we definitely have things to think about. I think for starters we may get the licensing and insurance (CERTAINLY do that before any money exchanges hands, but may do it before we intend on taking money), and see what acquaintances here and there might want to hire a photographer for a small event or something. She already has a lot of real estate contacts through her work, and I've seen these realtors websites. While an iPhone does take a good picture (though it helps if you HOLD IT SIDEWAYS), we've kind of been wondering if she couldn't accomplish these goals simply being hired to photograph properties for sale and rent? How perfect! No live subjects, plenty of room to work, and it can be done on virtually any schedule. The question though, is whether or not these realtors and property managers would be willing to do this, they may be content to sweep the floors and take cellphone pictures and be done with it.

 

[manaheim]

heh... wow, that's interesting.

btw, realtors are a whole topic unto themselves. Do some searches here with my name and real estate photography and you'll get some interesting insights.

 

[pixmedic]

heh... wow, that's interesting.

btw, realtors are a whole topic unto themselves. Do some searches here with my name and real estate photography and you'll get some interesting insights.

all one has to do, is do some searches HERE for your name to get some interesting insights...:lmao:

 

[manicmike]

Posting well thought out questions is always welcome. It's the people that post "what book should I buy" or "what lens is best" threads that are annoying. Those answers are everywhere on previous threads. Your questions are intelligently worded and specific. I like posters like that.