As long as the client likes it....

[tirediron]

By no means is the client liking it enough to justify a crap picture, but it depends on why it's being called crap; if it's for a purely technical reason (you totally blew the white dress she was wearing) that goes straight in the bit-bucket, but if it's crap because little junior's got three fingers shoved in his mouth and you were doing a formal portrait shoot and Mommy loves, it, that's a different story, and for that sort of thing, I would justify it with "the client liked it" (accompanied by sticking out my tongue and going "Nyahhhh" of course).

 

[Meysha]

I see what you're meaning now.

In my opinion "the client liked it" is not good enough for this forum. Unless your reason for posting it is to figure out why they liked it over the one you preferred. That I think is legit.

But asking us to critique a photo that you don't like, and obviously know you can do better is pretty much a waste of time.

 

[MelodySoul]

"The client liked it" does not justify a technically bad photograph, but it can justify a certain style or pose that you may not like that the client wanted IMO.

 

[mmcduffie1]

The client is the one that has to look at the photos. I try to give them what they want and what I know they need. But in the end the customer is always right. Take a wedding for instance... it's not your wedding and you don't know how they want to remember it. So get the shots you know are good and go ahead and do the ones they want. No harm no foul.

 

[LaFoto]

The way I understand Pete's issue, it is not about the interaction between photographer and client as such, but about the defense a poster to TPF my put up when in reply to their photo another member of TPF had said "This photo has issues here, there and there", and when that defense then is "OK, you may be right, but what does it matter when my client liked it?" All he wants to point out that a stance of the kind is against learning what CAN be done better. Do I get you right, Pete?

 

[Robin]

This is all very interesting, but.....

What I was really asking about is when an image is offered HERE for critique. Portraits, candids, commercial work..... I'm always frustrated when ANYTHING is justified with the phrase, "The client liked it."

It my be true enough, but it doesn't necessarily mean the image cannot be improved... or is even up to professional standards.

It just makes it hard for me to take time to offer anything further when it seems to be falling on deaf ears.

-Pete

In terms of that, no, I don't think that what the client liked is all that matters.

In terms of dealing with the client then yes, as long as they are happy that's all that matters. But to say that the client liking it must mean the photo is perfect is foolish. Once the client is gone and you're looking for work to put in your portfolio or on display for others to view and critique, it's a different story.

 

[Village Idiot]

"As long as the client likes it.... that's ALL that matters."

I've seen this statement MANY times as a response to critiques. REALLY? Does anyone really feel that's all that matters?

I can't help feeling it's a "cop-out." Further, settling for just satisfying the client doesn't advance the state of the profession, much less our own skills.

Doesn't anyone else here want the bar set higher?

-Pete

Skipping the rest of the thread...

If it's used as an excuse to justify work that you're showing off that was shot for a client and people are not receiving it well, it's a cop out.

If it's used as an excuse to why you're showing off work that you don't really care for and are looking for a way to help improve it so it fits what your client wants, then it's a plea for help.

 

[Village Idiot]

ARCH - What if your client wants HDR or the Dave Hill look? You know, over saturation, over use of the USM, as many lights as you can stick in the photo. You know it's played out and you know that none of your peers are going to really like it because they've seen it a million times, but are you really going to turn down $100? $500? $1000? $2500?

What's your price? Everyone is supposed to have a price, right?

 

[Arch]

sell it to them and hope they never use it for anything public, and also NEVER use it in your own portfolio if you know the shot isn't really very good.

I would choose this option from my last comment.

Of course you shouldn't refuse to do work... but you can be very influential if you choose to be. The client doesn't know how everything works and you should be able to make something good of it whilst still fulfilling the clients wishes. Whether you would then use it in your own portfolio is another matter.

I see what you're meaning now.

In my opinion "the client liked it" is not good enough for this forum. Unless your reason for posting it is to figure out why they liked it over the one you preferred. That I think is legit.

But asking us to critique a photo that you don't like, and obviously know you can do better is pretty much a waste of time.

Back to what Pete actually ment... yes i agree with this.

The client is the one that has to look at the photos. I try to give them what they want and what I know they need. But in the end the customer is always right. Take a wedding for instance... it's not your wedding and you don't know how they want to remember it. So get the shots you know are good and go ahead and do the ones they want. No harm no foul.

didn't you read my last post ><... ah well... i guess i just have to live and let live

 

[Christie Photo]

The way I understand Pete's issue, it is not about the interaction between photographer and client as such, but about the defense a poster to TPF my put up when in reply to their photo another member of TPF had said "This photo has issues here, there and there", and when that defense then is "OK, you may be right, but what does it matter when my client liked it?" All he wants to point out that a stance of the kind is against learning what CAN be done better. Do I get you right, Pete?

BINGO!

Thanks, Corinna. You've put it much better than I.

 

[StillImage]

Seems odd to me, if it has sold and they (the customers) are happy why would you put it up for critique? If it is a crappy photo why has my customer seen it in the first place? If a photo is not the best I can do, it does not ever make it to the customer to view. I come to forums like this, I see people who pass themselves off as professional photographers but yet come to a forum and ask for critiques from the general forum population. If I am having issues with a shoot, or not happy with the way my photos are turning out I might consult with someone whose work I know , admire and respect and talk over the job just to vent and eventually figure it out myself, but would never post on an open forum and ask for critiques. Seems just so unprofessional to me, if you need to get feedback on an open forum, not to rattle any chains, how professional are you if your asking just anyone for feedback.

If you are starting out I can see finding a few photographers who you respect to give you some pointers but never from those whose work I am unfamiliar with or whose work I hold in no regard. Seems a lot of people pass themselves off as professional but one has to wonder how good they are when they would post on open forum and get critiques from people who range from beginner to I imagine very professional. I understand beginners and hobbyist seeking critiques but claiming your a professional and then posting for critiques here just seems odd to me. If any of my clients seen me do that they would flee in droves, I am am the professional, why would I be asking amateurs or hobbyists for any critiques. Then if they found work they paid for on a forum to be critiqued I would be laughed out of the business.

I think helping those who are just starting is great, and helping them make decisions but they at that point should be sure of their work, know what they are doing as far as being a photographer goes, because being a good photographer does not make you a good business person and that is where I am wiling to try and give advice, if your trying to tell me your a professional and then post work here for critique well go back and learn to be a photographer first then worry about a business. I do also understand posting to share that is just different than asking for critiques. Not looking to get anyone angry just how I see it. I should be my own worse critic, if it passes my critiques it should pass anyones. The customer is never right, it is why they are hiring me I am the professional and not them. They expect me to know what I am doing and not after a shoot run to forum and ask what others think, why was I hired if I don't know what I am doing?

 

[reg]

BUT... should that "nasty" image be offered here for critique only to be defended with, "That's what they wanted"?

And who says that the TPF critique forums are an end all, be all for photography?

I think that "what they wanted" or "good enough" IS good enough if they're not charging 6k for a wedding. If they're taking the McPhoto, or more lovingly, the Walmart Portrait Studio approach, and charging as such, then it's good enough for someone out there.

Who are you to define what is and is not? Even if it's a horrible photo to most, I'm sure someone out there has an 8x10 on their bedside of the loving, young couple they used to be that was taken on a disposable camera and was blown up at Wal-mart, and I'm sure that even more out there these days have great memories, complete with blown out skies and even a CUT-OFF FINGER!!! in the picture, but it was THEIR wedding and if all they could get was the cousin with the Coolpix then that was all they could get.

Who are you to say that ISN'T good enough?

 

[manaheim]

Not to be glib, but isn't any defense against a critique when one posts asking for critique just kind of silly?

Discussion is fine, but defensive remarks are pointless and (IMO) a clear indication that the poster was more likely looking for an "'attaboy!" than any real critique.

 

[Christie Photo]

And who says that the TPF critique forums are an end all, be all for photography? .... Who are you to say that ISN'T good enough?

I don't think I (or anyone else) said either.

Are you suggesting that customer satisfaction should be the measure of our art?

AGAIN.... Suppose I make a portrait and the customer is well pleased. He/she has never been happier with any image. It made them feel like a star. They bought a 30x40 canvas and forty 8x10s for all the family and friends. Wonderful.

Now... I post the same image here, and several critiques point out some things that don't adhere to today's conventional reasoning. Some valid points are made on how the posing could be improved. Maybe I was careless about the way the clothing fit, or failed to fine-tune my lighting. Whatever.

What benefit is it to me (or the art of photography) if a poster simply shrugs and says, "As long as the client likes it."? This statement suggests that I'm finished. There's nothing more I need to learn. I have no responsibility to the profession to refine my skills or develop my knowledge of the art. I guess what I really feel is a statement like that is injurious to the profession, telling me to be satisfied with where I am in my growth.

Does any of this make sense?

-Pete

 

[reg]

Not to be glib, but isn't any defense against a critique when one posts asking for critique just kind of silly?

Discussion is fine, but defensive remarks are pointless and (IMO) a clear indication that the poster was more likely looking for an "'attaboy!" than any real critique.

This, too, though. I'm not saying that you should put "the client liked it" as an excuse when you get critique you asked for, but as far as the business side goes it's all that matters.