Bird Photographers, ethics, and sharing locations

[padrepaul77]

Hi everyone,

Wasn't sure where to post this so thought I would try here.

Birders sometimes debate whether or not to share information on where some beautiful but less common birds roost and can be found. This is especially true of owls. It's a controversial issue that I've found gets people riled up on both sides, myself included.

I fell in love with bird photography a few years ago. My full time vocation is as a Catholic priest; birds in particular interest me for their beauty but also being able to be out in nature. That being said, I've joined both photo clubs and also some birding groups in Minnesota.

Lately though I've had some issues on one group on Facebook. I've come under fire for asking where a shot was taken when someone posts a picture of an owl. The moderators of the group are worried about people disturbing the owl; another person said it seems I beg a lot. Most recently I was told not to ask about any raptor locations. This makes no sense - as we are talking about now eagles, osprey, and all kinds of birds. Personally I've found the group to be a bit too politically correct. I go out and photograph birds of all kinds on my day off; with a long telephoto I stay at a respectable distance and find raptors don't much care about me so much as a mouse in the snow or doing their thing. They are just a beauty to watch.

So I thought I'd ask fellow nature photographers if you sometimes feel like a second-class citizen with people who are more simply birders, or if some automatically assume you'll behave badly and harm a bird. My philosophy is to let people speak their mind and if they so desire in a public forum, to share where they took a shot of an owl. If a photographer wishes not to answer, that's fine and up to them. But in this particular group I've found not even being able to ask questions is rather disturbing and politically correct. Might I be missing something here? Thankfully there are many other online groups and I subscribe to lists that are free in my state to get information on migrating birds.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,
Fr. Paul

 

[deeky]

Can't say specifically about birders, but based on my 5 years living in Minnesota, it sounds about right. Similarly, when asking where someone was catching fish, the standard answer was "Area Lake". Unfortunately, there are people out there that will exploit and ruin a good thing, and unless they know you really well (my experience), they don't want their good thing ruined. And having lived in the Cities as well as out-state, there is definitely a propensity to lean towards extreme PC in the Cities. Right or wrong, just the way I found it.

Unless half the joy is being by yourself, find one other birder to invite out with you. Take them to one of your spots. Even if your spot doesn't pan out great, you will have built trust and they are more likely to share one of their spots with you.

 

[dewey]

Yeah I say it's just like fishing. I can see both sides of the fence, but if I spend weeks and hundreds in gas tracking a specific shot down I'm not going to be advertising the location to anyone. That's all part of the shot for me. Maybe it's because I'm not a dedicated birder, but I've never really paid much attention to the issue. Of course I've also never looked at other shots and had the thought to contact the photographer and ask them where they grabbed it.

Bald Eagles are a hot topic in Central Florida... especially when chicks are involved. Despite the fact that the location of most of the nests are documented by the state. (C'mon... JFGI people! )

 

[Studio7Four]

I'm not a birder, so I can't speak for that community, but as regards this thread I do see a difference between sharing a bird's location and revealing a favorite fishing hole. Unless the additional fishermen are all catch-and-release types, spreading the word means more fish caught -> fewer fish in the water -> less value to the original fisherman. In contrast, we're not talking about hunting the bird(s), so the value remains unchanged.

Now, to play devil's advocate, there are a couple reasons I could understand for not sharing locations on a public forum. One is that yes, they are looking out for the birds. You - and everyone else who would then visit - may in fact have the best of intentions and actually know how to behave. However, it is likely that if a new location is posted, too many people will want to visit it in short order, perhaps even at the same time. You and your telephoto might be okay - twenty people independently descending on this newly-revealed site it another story. IMO you might get further sending a private message to the person explaining your background and asking for the location than if you post and expect a public response.

The other reason I could think of is that perhaps some of these photographers have visions of capturing sale-worthy shots at these locations. In this case, other people shooting there may devalue the site for them.

And, frankly, some people are just territorial. This doesn't apply just to birders - I know of plenty of photographers who won't share locations, even if they and the inquiring photographer are just hobbyists looking to create nice images for themselves. I'm all for sharing the beauty, but not everyone feels the same.

 

[Buckster]

While I can understand the concern for ruining a good nature spot, I think the chances of a whole lot of people swarming to one spot and screwing it up just because someone posted the location are incredibly small. I think that's especially true among birders, who are generally all about not disturbing the natural habitat or the birds that are the subject they crave to shoot.

In the first place, they'd need to be in the area to make it worth their while to even go there.

Honestly, this sounds more like a selfish, territorial "ME! MINE! MIIIINNE!!!" thing to me.

Then again, I'm pretty much an open book when it comes to sharing information on anything and everything, from gear to technique to locations to whatever, and haven't personally found that to be detrimental to me or to any of the stuff I've revealed to others.

Maybe private messaging would work better, so the skittish persons with the information wouldn't feel like they're broadcasting it to the world.

 

[Steve5D]

Hi everyone,

Wasn't sure where to post this so thought I would try here.

Birders sometimes debate whether or not to share information on where some beautiful but less common birds roost and can be found. This is especially true of owls. It's a controversial issue that I've found gets people riled up on both sides, myself included.

I fell in love with bird photography a few years ago. My full time vocation is as a Catholic priest; birds in particular interest me for their beauty but also being able to be out in nature. That being said, I've joined both photo clubs and also some birding groups in Minnesota.

Lately though I've had some issues on one group on Facebook. I've come under fire for asking where a shot was taken when someone posts a picture of an owl. The moderators of the group are worried about people disturbing the owl; another person said it seems I beg a lot. Most recently I was told not to ask about any raptor locations. This makes no sense - as we are talking about now eagles, osprey, and all kinds of birds. Personally I've found the group to be a bit too politically correct. I go out and photograph birds of all kinds on my day off; with a long telephoto I stay at a respectable distance and find raptors don't much care about me so much as a mouse in the snow or doing their thing. They are just a beauty to watch.

So I thought I'd ask fellow nature photographers if you sometimes feel like a second-class citizen with people who are more simply birders, or if some automatically assume you'll behave badly and harm a bird. My philosophy is to let people speak their mind and if they so desire in a public forum, to share where they took a shot of an owl. If a photographer wishes not to answer, that's fine and up to them. But in this particular group I've found not even being able to ask questions is rather disturbing and politically correct. Might I be missing something here? Thankfully there are many other online groups and I subscribe to lists that are free in my state to get information on migrating birds.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,
Fr. Paul

Padre, you're in a unique position to tell 'em their souls are gonna' be damned to Hell for keeping such secrets. That'd sure catch my attention.

Seriously, though, I would try the PM route, as has been suggested...

 

[tirediron]

+2 for the PM - I totally understand the desire to restrict access to say, an endangered bird's nesting area. If I did have such information I certainly wouldn't post it publicly, but I might be willing to via a PM if I felt you were a responsible individual. Unfortunately, there are just too darn many people who will run out and try to get 'the' shot without any regard for nature.

 

[Jacaranda_wifey]

While I can understand the concern for ruining a good nature spot, I think the chances of a whole lot of people swarming to one spot and screwing it up just because someone posted the location are incredibly small. I think that's especially true among birders, who are generally all about not disturbing the natural habitat or the birds that are the subject they crave to shoot.

In the first place, they'd need to be in the area to make it worth their while to even go there.

Honestly, this sounds more like a selfish, territorial "ME! MINE! MIIIINNE!!!" thing to me.

Then again, I'm pretty much an open book when it comes to sharing information on anything and everything, from gear to technique to locations to whatever, and haven't personally found that to be detrimental to me or to any of the stuff I've revealed to others.

Maybe private messaging would work better, so the skittish persons with the information wouldn't feel like they're broadcasting it to the world.

I Totally agree with Buckster. My husband and I ran into an individual a week ago when trying to find a Great Horned Owl and its babies. The owl's location was given to us by a reliable gentleman we met while taking photos elsewhere when he saw our interest in bird photography. Upon arriving at the location of the owls, we spoke to the park ranger who directed us to the general area of the owls and also to a gentleman who was at the spot, who he said was there every day photographing the owls. We spoke to the said photographer who had a camera set up along with a video camera set up. When we asked if he had seen the owls, he feigned shocked that there were owls in the area, and proceeded to tell us the father (male owl) had died several years ago and that the owls had not been there for years and went on with some other various lies. He definitely came across as insincere and why would he have all the camera equipment set up I wonder? MMM....several minutes later a young couple was walking by and were taking pictures of the owls with their camera phone and my husband and I knew they were looking at something and when approached, they pointed us in the right direction to the exact owl location. The other gentleman who had only minutes before said there were no owls and given us his elaborate lies then proceeded to go to the young couple and give them grief over telling us where the owls were. Ridiculous! Alas, we saw only the mother owl that day but knew the babies were there somewhere but it was getting too dark to spot them. Upon our return to this same location this past weekend we were able to see the baby owls and it was a wonderful experience. We were even able to run into the original gentleman who had given us the directions to the owls and he made mention he had received an email from the "territorial photographer" stating he should not be telling individuals were the owls are located and the pictures will end up on facebook. It really takes all kinds, but thank goodness this "territorial photographer" is the only negative individual we have met since taking up and learning photography. I quite honestly wanted to slap the crap out of him but I'm too much a lady lol.....I will post pictures of the owls and will welcome c&c

 

[padrepaul77]

Thanks for sharing. My philosophy is I try to be trusting of people, and that on forums it's nice to share info mainly back-channel when asked. The problem I ran into on this other group was it was on Facebook; so no way to contact people unless you friend request them. The politburo (moderators) were not happy with me asking about where photos were taken in comments, even with more common great horned owls, so I just decided to leave the group. I have a crazy idea that being an adult, the photographer could easily say "It was at a roosting spot so I'd rather not say for all to see" or just ignore my question, but I guess that's asking too much because Minnesotans don't like to ever feel uncomfortable. I also heard that several people "didn't like" me through back channels, even though we of course have never met in real life. Minnesotans can be very passive-aggressive, and nice to your face but very cold and mean; hence "Minnesota Ice." As I don't want to deal with being accused of "begging" for bird spots (and as I think about it am now confused as to what the whole point of that birding group is on Facebook) I found it's just better to look elsewhere, and online there are newsgroups where updated sightings of birds are shared with ease. I do care a lot about birds too, and as I said via e-mail is probably the best - the group was just a bit odd and I thank you for your input. Owls really are wonderful aren't they?

 

[deeky]

For a second thought, have you looked at the Fishing Minnesota website? They have a birding forum. I'm not really active now, but used to be a great source of info when I was fishing up there.