Canon 60D, 70D, or Nikon D7100 for

DavidH373 · Dec 29, 2013

Hello All!

I'm new here, but hope to participate in the forum often. I've been struggling with this issue for months, and I'm having a hard time coming to a conclusion. I'm planning to buy a mid-range DSLR for Video. Mainly I'll be shooting action, but some drama and home videos. My videos are going to be posted to Youtube and Vimeo and post production will involve visual effects exported from 3D and 2D software. My friends also have cameras we'll be using in the form of T2i and T3i. I'm struggling to choose between the 60D and 70D, and may even consider the D7100 as I had originally. Budget is of course around $1000, and $1500 for lenses and gear (Follow Focus, HDMI connected Screen, Bag, Filters, Tripod, SD Cards, ect.). I know I won't get all the accessories in that $1500 budget, but I want the best value I can get, and obviously the 60D at $600 is going to allow for more to be stuffed in the budget. On the other hand, the 70D seems to be a monster for video, with all it's AF features, and I'll admit, I like all the techie features like the touch screen, mobile app functionality, and it also seems to have better scaling in video (blowing up 720p to 1080p to allow 60fps capture for slow motion). I'm not sure how much those extra features will be used for the extra $350 though. Then there is the D7100, with it's native 1080p at 60fps and dedicated headphone jack.

It seems to me my budget has me leaning more toward the 60D, but I like all the delicious bits on the 70D, and of course the D7100 has the framerate I want for video... Thank you for any help you can lend me. Also, some advice on good filters, handheld rigs, dollys, ect. wouldn't hurt me either.

robbins.photo · Dec 29, 2013

Ok, well in the interested of full disclosure I'm a Nikon guy. I like Nikon. I shoot Nikon. I prefer Nikon. So, my recommendation is... Buy the Canon.

The 60d is an excellent buy right now particularly used or refurbished because of the recent release of the 70d. Nikon is an outstanding camera - but when you look at the options available for video particularly in higher end cameras I think you'll find Canon has the edge in this arena. The thing about your purchase is your not just buying a camera, your buying into a camera system. As a result I'd recommend you go the canon route, as further on down the road you'll have more options to upgrade to really improve the video capabilities of your camera without having to re-invest in all of those lenses and accessories for a different system.

KmH · Dec 29, 2013

Right now, Nikon's best non-pro grade DSLR camera for video is the D5300.

See post #3 - http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/dslr-video-discussion/347788-nikon-dx-s-video.html

cruiser · Dec 29, 2013

Panny GH3

I know this is not in your list, but this is the best camera for shooting video. Pair it with the Panny 12-35 F2.8 lens (24-70 in Canon's terms) and you've got a winner. The camera is much smaller (the lens too) than most DSLRs and shoots great video. There are a lot of YT videos comparing this to the 5DMK3 and other DSLRs and the GH3 comes out on top. There's almost no moire too.
Happy shopping.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

JacaRanda · Dec 29, 2013

While shooting action, will you be shooting continuous burst in raw format? Here are a few videos that may help with your decision. You will have to decide what the most important features are to you.

JacaRanda · Dec 29, 2013

Here are a couple more videos that may help with your decision.

This next one is a comparison of the D7100 and the 70D.

JacaRanda · Dec 29, 2013

Sorry, this is the first time I have ever tried to post 3 videos; only allowed to do one per post.

DavidH373 · Dec 29, 2013

Gah... Sorry guys, I don't mean to offend, but I've had 3 cameras added to my list and I have knocked one off, and I was hoping to get things narrowed down. You guys have given me lots of info though, so I am very grateful. Now the list is as follows in order of what I think I'd get first and why.

60D - Price. If I'm getting 2-3 lenses for different shots, a tripod, possible a handheld rig and some filters, a bag, ect., it will be hard to cram everything into a $1500 budget with a $1000 camera, so the $600 price of the 60D is nice. Unfortunately it is the lowest end camera of the cameras I'm considering, and I feel I might regret not investing with a nicer body upfront. Video Framrate is limited to 1080 @ 30p

70D - Features and quality. It has frills. Touch enabled, Wifi Enabled out of the box, nice dual pixel sensor and increased bitrate for better scaling. It's really hard for me not to see the value in spending an extra $350 for all these advanced features. Thing is, it's $350 more expensive, and video is still limited to 1080p 30p, and I can't get suited up with all the accessories right away. Also, honestly, I won't be using AF. I'll be using a Follow Focus, so that really doesn't benefit me. As compared to Nikon, it seems to have more pleasing saturation right out of the camera, as opposed to Nikon which has very low saturation, but more detail.

Panasonic DMC-GH3K - Seems to be a fair compromise between Canon and Nikon. Color is great, detail is great, I have 1080p 60p like with a Nikon, but how many lenses are available? What mount does it use? There are a lot of accessories needed for videographers to be happy on a set getting all the shots they need. I'd also like future expandability via lenses and follow focus, among other things.

Blackmagic Pocket - A pure video cam and not much of a DSLR per se, but I like the bitrate and quality of the video (RAW in fact), color, detail. The only compromise is I can't take decent stills, and the selection of lenses available for the Micro 3/4 mount are pretty limited unless you get in the $500-$1500 range, which I do not have the budget for. I'm also worried about accessories with this camera. I feel like because it's a camera specifically for video, and a specific market, and it's the only camera in their line, accessories are going to be more expensive, and harder to find competition from third party manufacturers.

Nikon D5300 - Good video quality, good settings, good detail, poor Saturation, 1080p @ 60p. It has a decent range of lenses like the Canon options, decent accessories as with the Canon.

I almost want to say "MAKE UP MY MIND FOR ME!!", but then again, I work in electronics sales, and I don't like pressuring my customers or even feeling like I'm pressuring friends when giving advice outside of work. I'm knocking the D7100 off my list because it seems to have more of that Aliasing (AKA Morey), and really doesn't seem impressive for the money aside from the 1080p @ 60p setting, which you can get cheaper in the D5300 with most of the features still in-tact from it's older bigger brother. I have a few friends that shoot Nikon, and they haven't been pushy for me to get one like the friends who shoot with Canon. I don't want to start a flame war, and you guys have been good at keeping your bias' in check, but I'm really leaning toward Canon for my purposes. Honestly, I haven't researched Panasonic AT ALL, so you guys who are pushing for that will need to also guide me into the accessories. I think the video quality looks gorgeous, but it's frightening to know I've spent months looking at cameras already set on Nikon or Canon and now I might need to do the same between Canon and Panasonic. I think the Blackmagic and Nikon are out at this point without really compelling evidence to sway me.

EDIT: So I've done some extra research. Apparently (obvious at this point to you), the less saturated the image is, the more you can play with grading it later as long as the dynamic range is good.. Also, sensor cropping may be an issue with the smaller sensor GH3 and the BlackMagic, right? The sad thing is, I've actually worked post on a few projects, and color graded a few things, and still I haven't done this research before. Any information is good information at this point guys. Thank you for continuing to help.

brunerww · Dec 30, 2013

Hi David - welcome to world of large sensor interchangeable lens video! Lots to choose from, but the results on screen can be worth it. Here are a few thoughts based on my experience over the past few years.

I sold my first video DSLR, a Canon T2i, and bought into the Panasonic GH system back in 2010 for several reasons: the T2i had no video autofocus, no video viewfinder, no headphone jack, was limited to 12 minutes of continuous video (after which it had to be restarted), and it was prone to moire. The 60D may be affordable, but it suffers from all of these same challenges and I would avoid it for video.

You can make great video with the 70D, and dual pixel autofocus is terrific, but it still has has a 30 minute continuous video limit, no 1080/60p, no video viewfinder, no headphone jack and a serious moire challenge.

The D5300 has 1080/60p and solves the moire problem, but, as with all Nikon DSLRs, you have to come out of Live View to change your aperture, it has no headphone jack, its continuous autofocus leaves a lot to be desired - and, as with all DSLRs, it has no video viewfinder.

That leaves the BMPCC and the GH3. I own both of these cameras, and the GH3 solves every problem outlined above. It has negligible moire, shoots for hours continuously, its viewfinder keeps working in video mode, it has great continuous autofocus and it has a headphone jack.

In addition, it records the highest bit rate and has the best choice of recording formats (codecs) of any camera on your list except the BMPCC. Plus, it's a pretty good still camera (not as good as the latest Canons or Nikons, but pretty darned good).

The BMPCC, on the other hand, is for people who want the ultimate in 1080p image quality, but are willing to put up with no viewfinder, no 1080/60p, a hard to see LCD, massive data requirements, poor battery life and no stills.

As far as lenses go, let me assure you that you will have no trouble finding affordable system or manual cine lenses for micro 4/3.

If you want affordable autofocusing system lenses, you can get them for about $199. For that price, you can buy either a 19mm Sigma f2.8, a 30mm Sigma f2.8 or (on sale right now) a Panasonic 45-150mm

The 14-42mm kit lens is a decent video lens and costs even less.

Manual focus cine lenses cost the same, no matter which system you buy into (e.g., the Rokinon 16mm T2.2 cine lens costs about the same, whether you get it in micro 4/3, Canon EF or Nikon mount).

The great thing about mirrorless cameras is how easy it is to adapt inexpensive old manual glass with $20-$30 adapters. Some of my favorite Canon FD lenses cost me less than $50 plus the adapter, and none of the non-Lumix lenses in this picture cost me more than $355:

All of that said, I recommend you buy Nikon mount lenses and get a Metabones Speed Booster/Nikon adapter as soon as you can afford it. This is an amazing optical adapter that gives you a faster, wider lens for less than it would cost to buy new glass. It is not available for Canon or Nikon DSLRs because the mirror gets in the way.

Bottom line - if you really really need RAW and want the creative freedom to be able to do Hollywood style color correction on your movies, get the $995 BMPCC and use your phone for stills

.

Otherwise, in my view, the Panasonic GH3 is the best still/video camera in your price range. If money is an issue, you can get most of the GH3's advantages (except for the headphone jack and multiple codecs) from its little brother, the $699 Panasonic G6.

For examples of what these cameras can do, please see their respective Vimeo groups. I moderate the G6 and BMPCC groups, but can't take credit for the great GH3 group:

Panasonic G6 on Vimeo

Panasonic GH3 on Vimeo

Pocket Cinema Camera on Vimeo

Hope this is helpful and Happy New Year!

Bill

DavidH373 · Dec 30, 2013

brunerww said:
All of that said, I recommend you buy Nikon mount lenses and get a Metabones Speed Booster/Nikon adapter as soon as you can afford it. This is an amazing optical adapter that gives you a faster, wider lens for less than it would cost to buy new glass. It is not available for Canon or Nikon DSLRs because the mirror gets in the way.

Bottom line - if you really really need RAW and want the creative freedom to be able to do Hollywood style color correction on your movies, get the $995 BMPCC and use your phone for stills .

Bill

Thank you Bill. I watched many of the videos in the GH3 group. Lots of nice nature shots with breathtaking color. I'm practically sold on the body. You also pointed me to some good beginner glass, which I appreciate.

This video caught my eye though (GH3/GX7 CINE-Rig in Panasonic GH3 on Vimeo)

You mentioned getting the cinemabones adapter, which is out of my budget currently, but what are some good Nikon Cinema lenses to attach? Where is there a good resource for finding good glass once I decide to pull the trigger on an upgrade?

Meanwhile, I'm still drooling over the BMPCC's video quality, but trying not to convince myself I can part with the extra $1500 to make it happen, lol.

brunerww · Dec 31, 2013

DavidH373 said:
Thank you Bill. I watched many of the videos in the GH3 group. Lots of nice nature shots with breathtaking color. I'm practically sold on the body. You also pointed me to some good beginner glass, which I appreciate.

This video caught my eye though (GH3/GX7 CINE-Rig in Panasonic GH3 on Vimeo)

Glad I could help. As for Johnny Gadget's Cine Rig - it looks cool and I don't want to be negative, but I've always wondered why people buy expensive loupes for the GH3 when it has a great EVF. I put a $14 Zacuto eyecup around my EVF instead of buying a $150 loupe. Here's what the GH3 looks like with the eyecup on it (please ignore all the other stuff hanging on the camera

):

As for his "matte box" - as far as I can tell, it doesn't take filters, which is an important reason for why you buy a matte box in the first place. I have a $50 matte box that takes Cokin P filters and keeps the glare off the lens. Doesn't look as cool, but it does the job. Here it is on my camcorder:

DavidH373 said:
You mentioned getting the cinemabones adapter, which is out of my budget currently, but what are some good Nikon Cinema lenses to attach? Where is there a good resource for finding good glass once I decide to pull the trigger on an upgrade?

A quick Amazon search for "Cine Lens Nikon" is a good start. These lenses are more expensive than buying used Nikkors on eBay.

The best value for your money for this type of lens is probably the $429 Rokinon 16mm T2.2 for Nikon at Adorama. The same lens is $452.38 at Amazon as of this post.

DavidH373 said:
Meanwhile, I'm still drooling over the BMPCC's video quality, but trying not to convince myself I can part with the extra $1500 to make it happen, lol.

I love my BMPCC, and am still learning how to get the best image quality out of it, but, as you say, the $995 camera body is just the beginning with this camera:

- SDXC cards for RAW start at $120.

- then you have to add the $155 Switronix Pocketbase external battery,

- plus the mandatory $162 BMPCC loupe or $250 EVF and, if you want decent sound,

- an external recorder or preamp ($300-$400) and a decent mic (about $300)

Even if you only buy a single lens for $100 (like this used Nikon 28mm f2.8 from KEH via eBay) and a $14 Nikon to micro 4/3 adapter, you can easily spend $2000 trying to make this camera as usable as the $929 GH3 is straight out of the box.

As a bare bones setup, you can put together a decent BMPCC rig for $1400 ($995 for the camera, $99 for the 28mm f2.8 Nikon lens, $14 for a Nikon to micro 4/3 adapter, $229 for a Videomic Pro, $15 for an LCD shade, and $37.40 for a couple of extra batteries).

That's about as low as you can go (but that doesn't include the $120 SDXC card for RAW).

If you do decide to go this route, your rig would look something like this:

Again, hope this is helpful, and hope you've had a great holiday season,

Bill

DavidH373 · Dec 31, 2013

Thank you all for your help. Just for one last post, I'm going to link everything I'm going to buy here. Just to make sure everything is within a reasonable range from my budget and everything I'm planning to buy is approved.

GH3 Body $929.99
Amazon.com: Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH3K 16.05 MP Digital Single Lens Mirrorless Camera with 3-Inch OLED - Body Only (Black): PANASONIC: Camera & Photo

Sigma 19mm $199.00
http://www.amazon.com/Sigma-19mm-f2...s=sigma+19mm+micro+four+thirds&tag=pcper04-20

Panasonic 45-150 $199.99
Amazon.com: Panasonic H-FS45150K Lumix G Series Lens (Black): PANASONIC: Camera & Photo

Carrying Backpack $35.12
Amazon.com: AmazonBasics DSLR and Laptop Backpack (Gray interior): Camera & Photo

2x Sandisk Extreme 80Mb/S $80
Amazon.com: SanDisk Extreme 32 GB SDHC Class 10 UHS-1 Flash Memory Card 80MB/s (SDSDXS-032G-AFFP): Computers & Accessories

Ravelli 67" $78.69 (is this good?)
Amazon.com: Ravelli AVT Professional 67-inch Video Camera Tripod with Fluid Drag Head: Camera & Photo

$1522.77 total.

Is this a good move? I have an itchy trigger finger now. There are also some books I want to get to improve at grading and editing...:

Color Grading Handbook $46.92
Color Correction Handbook: Professional Techniques for Video and Cinema (2nd Edition): Alexis Van Hurkman: 9780321929662: Amazon.com: Books

Technique of Film and Video Editing $37.89
The Technique of Film and Video Editing: History, Theory, and Practice: Ken Dancyger: 9780240813974: Amazon.com: Books

brunerww · Jan 1, 2014

Great list! Three suggestions:

1) I might see if I could get a new GH3 camera body for less than $900 on eBay - these are brand new bodies with factory warranties, just like you'll get from Amazon. Only a few left at these prices (EDIT: I just noticed that prices have gone up at Amazon - if you aren't comfortable buying on eBay you may want to look at getting one for $929 from Adorama [no sales tax outside of NY]).

2) I have an $86 128GB Kingston SDXC card in my GH3 and a $46 Kingston 64GB card in my GH2. These cards have been just as reliable as my Sandisks and are a lot less expensive.

3) And you might want to look at the $120 (on sale) Ravelli AVTP Professional instead of the $79 AVT Professional 67-inch. I have the AVTP Professional and it's a lot better tripod for just a few dollars more. In fact, I had the AVTP out yesterday on a shoot, and the 75mm bowl is terrific - it lets you level the camera without having to adjust the legs - a real timesaver. Highly recommended.

Good luck!

Bill

SCraig · Jan 1, 2014

I may be barking up the wrong tree since I know absolutely zero about video, but personally if my primary interest was video I don't think I'd be looking at a still camera with video capabilities. I think I'd be looking at a video camera. That's just me, of course.

brunerww · Jan 1, 2014

SCraig said:
I may be barking up the wrong tree since I know absolutely zero about video, but personally if my primary interest was video I don't think I'd be looking at a still camera with video capabilities. I think I'd be looking at a video camera. That's just me, of course.

Hi Scott - A lot has happened in video since first generation video-capable still cameras were introduced back in late 2008 (Nikon D90, Canon 5D Mark II). These cameras started the hybrid still-video revolution, but they were deeply flawed (e.g., moire, limited recording times due to overheating).

Now, because many of those flaws have been addressed, and because their larger sensors approximate the look of $40,000 Hollywood Super 35 cameras, filmmakers are using modern hybrid cameras for feature films such as Upstream Color (shot entirely on the Panasonic GH2).

In another example, the producers of the upcoming German feature film "Frauen" used ten of the $1000 Panasonic GH3 cameras (the camera I recommended to David) to shoot their movie: Hybrid Camera Revolution: Upcoming German Film "Frauen" (Women) Shoots With 10 GH3s!

There is no small-sensor "video" camera in this price range than can produce cinematic low-light, shallow depth-of-field images like these (from Genesis - the Panasonic GH3 launch film, directed by Hollywood cinematographer Bruce Logan, A.S.C. (Tron):

[video=vimeo;49420579]http://vimeo.com/49420579[/video]

These aren't your grandfather's still cameras

Happy New Year!

Bill