Client demanding RAW files. Now what?

[manaheim]

One more point: stop communicating with the client. Put his email address on your Junk list.

Not communicating with a client seems like an excellent way to not have business.

Not that you should get sucked into a huge debate over it. Contract is a contract and the RAWs are not part of the contract, but putting a client in your junk filter seems silly. Just don't argue the point.

The way I would handle this is...

1. Double-check with the client and make sure they understand what a RAW file is and point out that it takes significantly more work to process these images correctly. As someone else pointed out, they really may just want an image they can print themselves.

2. Honestly, just set your price.

I mean seriously... they want the RAW files? Sure. Why the hell not? For a price. Perhaps they just want JPEGs they can print? Sure! Why the hell not? Just set a price.

Me, personally, I'd put RAWs at a RIDICULOUSLY high price. Like I usually run about $1500 for an average building shoot... if they want the RAW images, I'd price it at around $6000, and that's with me still retaining primary copyright and with a limited usage clause. If they want exclusivity? $12,000. Has anyone ever taken me up on this? No way. Which is perfect, because I don't really want them to have them anyway... but that being said, if they're willing to give me $5000 or $10,000 for them? Well... that's the point at which I stop being uncomfortable with the idea of them having my RAW images.

Business is business, and everything has a price. You just have to decide where that price is. Let him know the price for your options and anytime he howls at you asking for the RAWs (or whatever) simply say "Why certainly, I'll send you an invoice and send you the images as soon as I receive payment."

No emotion, no freaking out... just set your price and stick to it.

 

[Lauren Fitzgerald]

I totally agree with you. I do have a set price for jpegs and he can certainly buy them if he wants to. But he refuses to spend more than $100, so there lies the problem. He told me flat out his budget is $100 and that is why he wants the RAW files (so he can print them at Walmart.) He says he never would have hired me if he'd known he didn't get a CD with the $100 sitting fee. He is just trying to get something for next to nothing, I'm afraid.

 

[manaheim]

hehe, yup. Well, you're at the point where you say that you're sorry but those are the terms and let it drop. If nothing else, it's certainly entertaining.

 

[c.cloudwalker]

One more point: stop communicating with the client. Put his email address on your Junk list.

Not communicating with a client seems like an excellent way to not have business.

Not that you should get sucked into a huge debate over it. Contract is a contract and the RAWs are not part of the contract, but putting a client in your junk filter seems silly. Just don't argue the point.

The way I would handle this is...

1. Double-check with the client and make sure they understand what a RAW file is and point out that it takes significantly more work to process these images correctly. As someone else pointed out, they really may just want an image they can print themselves.

2. Honestly, just set your price.

I mean seriously... they want the RAW files? Sure. Why the hell not? For a price. Perhaps they just want JPEGs they can print? Sure! Why the hell not? Just set a price.

Me, personally, I'd put RAWs at a RIDICULOUSLY high price. Like I usually run about $1500 for an average building shoot... if they want the RAW images, I'd price it at around $6000, and that's with me still retaining primary copyright and with a limited usage clause. If they want exclusivity? $12,000. Has anyone ever taken me up on this? No way. Which is perfect, because I don't really want them to have them anyway... but that being said, if they're willing to give me $5000 or $10,000 for them? Well... that's the point at which I stop being uncomfortable with the idea of them having my RAW images.

Business is business, and everything has a price. You just have to decide where that price is. Let him know the price for your options and anytime he howls at you asking for the RAWs (or whatever) simply say "Why certainly, I'll send you an invoice and send you the images as soon as I receive payment."

No emotion, no freaking out... just set your price and stick to it.

I started reading this thread thinking I would probably not say anything because someone would give you the right idea on how to deal with this guy. But I read and read and read and it just got worse and worse until I came to manaheim's post and I said to myself: "finally some common sense."

You are a pro, act like one. Do not act like a child. I've had a few idiots like that in my career like every other pro has or will have. You need to stay cool and professional. Believe me it will do a lot more for you that getting hot headed.

And, as someone else mentioned, do not tell the guy to take you to court. You most probably would win but at what cost? Not everybody is good at representing themselves. If you're one of those, you'd need a lawyer. If you pick a cheap one because that is all you can afford, you could end up losing.
Just not a good idea!

Don't block this guy's emails either. What if he comes to his senses and sends you one ordering prints? Just not a good idea either!

As manaheim said, set your prices for all different possibilities then send the client an email clearly stating what the different possibilities are (with a short and sweet explanation of what each file format is) and the rates for each.

Every time you get an email that is not an order, just respond with something similar to this (again from manaheim): "Why certainly, I'll send you an invoice and send you the images as soon as I receive payment." Figure out a similar thing that will deal with just about any request he could make so that you can always sent the same email back. That will throw him off tracks.

Last but not least, why not sell RAW files. This guy is most probably going to give you a bad rap no matter what. So does it make much difference if it is for bad prints that he made from you RAW files he didn't know what to do with? Not really.

But don't make it easy for him either. Set you rates high so that if he is stupid enough to pay them at least you make some good money.

What is most important in this is, that by giving him options instead of just saying no to his idiotic demands, you make him the decision maker. With your rates, you can make him pick a way to go that you can live with.

 

[c.cloudwalker]

I totally agree with you. I do have a set price for jpegs and he can certainly buy them if he wants to. But he refuses to spend more than $100, so there lies the problem. He told me flat out his budget is $100 and that is why he wants the RAW files (so he can print them at Walmart.) He says he never would have hired me if he'd known he didn't get a CD with the $100 sitting fee. He is just trying to get something for next to nothing, I'm afraid.

Did he tell you what he wanted exactly (RAW files) and what his budget was when he signed the contract?

If not, there lies no problem of yours. It is his problem. You have no need whatsoever to make it yours.

 

[Lauren Fitzgerald]

All good points. Thank you.

Yes, he said RAW images, but I think someone told him to say that. I don't think he understands what that means. He believes that by asking for photos SOOC that they ought to be cheaper and only worth a hundred bucks, as opposed to ones edited and saved as jpeg. True, it would be easy enough to slap them on a disc, but not at that price. Not so much because he would make muliple cheap copies (although that idea does irk me), but because I think it's important to remain fair, consistent and professional when it comes to pricing and not give one customer special treatment while everyone else pays the going rate. I don't think I should compromise my integrity because he is bullying me. No, he never told me his budget at the session. As a matter of fact, he waited until the day his online proofing gallery was to expire to even contact me and tell me he couldn't afford my prices.

I honestly don't care if I sell him RAW, jpeg, prints, etc. But I won't give my work away for next to nothing.

 

[manaheim]

There's a certain humor to the idea of actually giving him RAW images as he'd have absolutely no idea what to do with them.

Then when he calls you can explain you'd be happy to convert them to usable format for a mere $5000.

(no, don't actually do this, but it is fun to think about...)

 

[c.cloudwalker]

All good points. Thank you.

Yes, he said RAW images, but I think someone told him to say that. I don't think he understands what that means. He believes that by asking for photos SOOC that they ought to be cheaper and only worth a hundred bucks, as opposed to ones edited and saved as jpeg. True, it would be easy enough to slap them on a disc, but not at that price. Not so much because he would make muliple cheap copies (although that idea does irk me), but because I think it's important to remain fair, consistent and professional when it comes to pricing and not give one customer special treatment while everyone else pays the going rate. I don't think I should compromise my integrity because he is bullying me. No, he never told me his budget at the session. As a matter of fact, he waited until the day his online proofing gallery was to expire to even contact me and tell me he couldn't afford my prices.

I honestly don't care if I sell him RAW, jpeg, prints, etc. But I won't give my work away for next to nothing.

Well then, set your rates, send them to him and don't budge. And, as manaheim said, set them high enough that he won't want to pay them.

Basic psychology says you do not ever want to say no to a customer/client. Instead of saying no, you give them options and you let them make the ultimate decision. But that does not mean you can't control the decision they make by the options you offer them.

A RAW file for $1,000.00 or a 4x6 for $25.00. Which one is the average customer going to choose? Period.

 

[c.cloudwalker]

There's a certain humor to the idea of actually giving him RAW images as he'd have absolutely no idea what to do with them.

Then when he calls you can explain you'd be happy to convert them to usable format for a mere $5000.

(no, don't actually do this, but it is fun to think about...)

:thumbup:

Absolutely beautiful! :lmao:

:lmao:

:lmao:

 

[msf]

I totally agree with you. I do have a set price for jpegs and he can certainly buy them if he wants to. But he refuses to spend more than $100, so there lies the problem. He told me flat out his budget is $100 and that is why he wants the RAW files (so he can print them at Walmart.) He says he never would have hired me if he'd known he didn't get a CD with the $100 sitting fee. He is just trying to get something for next to nothing, I'm afraid.

Depending on your print prices, you could offer him something in the $25 range. one wallet perhaps. or proofs of the images that are heavily watermarked and low res?

You have to consider the bad rep that they might be giving you though. They are probably not giving you glowing recomendations to everyone that will listen to them.

 

[Restomage]

Just curious, it seems like everyone here is against giving their clients RAW files, I don't see the harm in it. I understand the thread-starter's situation but I'm saying in general it seems like everyone is against it.

 

[manaheim]

Just curious, it seems like everyone here is against giving their clients RAW files, I don't see the harm in it. I understand the thread-starter's situation but I'm saying in general it seems like everyone is against it.

There are a variety of problems with it...

1. You are giving the client the ability to create/print/use images at whim with no real technical limitations.
2. You are giving the client the ability to interpret your images without consideration to your artistic choices or your quality standards.
3. You are allowing the client to represent your capabilities through their interpretations, putting your reputation at risk.
4. You are giving away future revenue by giving away the source for images that could be printed and sold by you.

There may be others, but this is plenty.

 

[raider]

give him all the raw files in the raw format - and give them all a nice gaussian blur.

 

[Lauren Fitzgerald]

Depending on your print prices, you could offer him something in the $25 range. one wallet perhaps. or proofs of the images that are heavily watermarked and low res?

Actually, I do sell a CD with low resolution jpeg images (watermarked) that would work with his budget and I pointed it out to him several times but he was not having it. He wants the originals so that he can run off prints and that's all he wants. He's made no qualms about telling me what he plans to use the images for and that all he wants is the original digital file.

I had to laugh about selling the files then charging $5,000 to convert to jpeg. I can TOTALLY see myself getting that phone call, along with a sob story about how he didn't know that raw meant RAW and had he known that, he never would have bought the raw images. :lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:

 

[farmerj]

I have a couple suggestions:

If you are using Outlook 2007, set up a specific folder on this guy and put all his emails in there. IF he should decide to sue you, print every one of them out with your response to give to the judge. Open his emails long enough to see if they are an order, if not, close em, save em and be done with it. Deleting them will remove any record of a conversation.

As Manaheim said, Give him a choice. If a 8X10 print is $25, sell him the Raw image for $500. Make it obviously a better deal to get the print from you. Better yet, just keep referring him to your price list. It's your business model. If you differ from it for him, it may haunt you in court.

Do NOT respond to him in anything but a business matter and manner. It will haunt you in court if you do.

As you have discovered. It's his modus operandi. Let it work it's course. If he's got a reputation with the courts, it will show.


As a result of the incident.
Change your contract to include a "No RAW images will be given statement." UNDER ANY circumstance.

Make your "proof" prints so low res, even the walmart prints will look like crud. Even down to 12 PPI is still viewable in a smallish image that can be reviewed. For better image reviews, schedule an appointment. Or if it's obvious they will be making an order, have them give you a list of images for higher resolution images for them to make afinal decision on.