Critiquing the Critics

[Iron Flatline]

Sometimes I'm stuck on an image, so I submit it to the Critic's Forum along with my description of my creative bottleneck. I will also provide the .PSD file and the RAW file to give people a chance to really work it from scratch. I invariably find that someone will work it in a way that is completely foreign to me, so that I learn a lot more than just how to fix one particular image.

If compared to cooking, it's like learning a technique rather than a recipe.

 

[Aquarium Dreams]

Can the ability to give good critique be learned, and if so, where would one begin?

 

[Hertz van Rental]

Can the ability to give good critique be learned, and if so, where would one begin?

Of course it can. People aren't born with the ability to do it
However...
First you need to become a good photographer. That is, know yourself, why you do what you do, what you try to do with your photographs - your motivation. You can't tell others what to do or where they have gone wrong unless you can apply it to yourself.
Then you need to have more than one such person give you some good critiques to see how it's done. And you need to realise that a crit, being personal, has to be tailored to the individual and learn the techniques - tailoring the level of your crit to the level of the person.
Finally you learn that what you are doing is finding out what the person you are critting is all about and then gently nudging them in the direction that they want to go in. It's a bit Zen really.
Not essential - but certainly a big help - is to have some of the top photographers of your day treat you as a peer and seek your advice because they respect you. This lets you know you are not talking b*ll*cks :mrgreen:

A crit is a bit like a car: they range from the Reliant Robin to a Rolls Royce.
Until you have a Rolls you don't know what you are missing (so you won't miss it - but don't worry).

 

[gtkelly]

From a different perspective, I'm fairly new to this. I found early on that some of the critiques I got were leading me in wrong directions. But without a base to judge for myself my images wound up looking terrible.

So the critques can be a double edged sword. When you're more experienced and confident with your work I think you need them less. And when you're inexperienced you don't know how to separate good from bad.

At this point there are a few I listen to, and many I ignore completely.

 

[Riggaberto]

Just wondering- How much credence do you give critiques you recieve? Do you just take it all in at face value and believe everything you read, or check up on the reviewer to determine if their comments have value? How do you verify their comments/opinions?

I have rarely received good comments on here so I stopped almost immediately. I find that people either don't answer your question, provide comments that aren't useful, or simply give bad advice. I've noticed that there are several people who are full time critics who give advice that's flawed in some very basic ways, or is just overly opinionated, often not respectful. I haven't posted in a critique section for a while because of this.

 

[Hertz van Rental]

I have rarely received good comments on here so I stopped almost immediately. I find that people either don't answer your question, provide comments that aren't useful, or simply give bad advice. I've noticed that there are several people who are full time critics who give advice that's flawed in some very basic ways, or is just overly opinionated, often not respectful. I haven't posted in a critique section for a while because of this.

See my previous post and draw your own conclusions

 

[abraxas]

From a different perspective, I'm fairly new to this. I found early on that some of the critiques I got were leading me in wrong directions. But without a base to judge for myself my images wound up looking terrible.

So the critques can be a double edged sword. When you're more experienced and confident with your work I think you need them less. And when you're inexperienced you don't know how to separate good from bad.

At this point there are a few I listen to, and many I ignore completely.

I found that looking at the work of some of the critics was the most enlightening. Reading their posts to others and the tone. It took me awhile to catch on.

I have rarely received good comments on here so I stopped almost immediately. I find that people either don't answer your question, provide comments that aren't useful, or simply give bad advice. I've noticed that there are several people who are full time critics who give advice that's flawed in some very basic ways, or is just overly opinionated, often not respectful. I haven't posted in a critique section for a while because of this.

I'd think you might want to keep trying. If you're not recieving any comments, sometimes a (bump) or two or three will bring 'em up. Participating in critiquing other's photos may help too. It certainly helps me with my shots providing an opinion. I figure then if I'm being ignored, it's for a reason .

 

[motcon]

Can the ability to give good critique be learned, and if so, where would one begin?

most certainly. if and only if one considers the process and the product of photography as an art, then all guidelines of art apply. note the usage of the word 'guidelines'. where does one begin? by learning the fundamentals that important in these areas (the short list):

center of interest

subject placement

simplicity

viewpoint and camera angle

balance

shapes and lines

pattern

volume

lighting

texture

tone

contrast

framing

foreground

background

perspective


if one considers it an art, then one must submit to their work being critiqued as art. if one states that photography is all subjective, then by default he/she participates in photography as a hobby.

 

[Weaving Wax]

I'm really learning to take the critique I get with a grain of salt. Like Lafoto said, people want different things out of photography. Some people don't like the grain in my photos, some don't like the contrast, focusing, DOF..etc..etc..but at the end of the day, they're my photos and I worked hard to get the results I wanted. Things like DOF, grain and contrast are my own doing and I do it purposefully. I love getting feedback, but I do take it with a grain of salt because I want different things out of photography than some people do and that's ok.

As for giving critique? I do give it based on what I would do with the photo, after all, isn't that what critique is? I'm not too great with the technicalities of photography, but people are welcome to take my advice or leave it. I do have a link in my sig for people to check out if they want to "check me out" to make sure I know what I'm talking about.. I may or may not give the advice or critique that they are looking for, but it's just someones opinion....

 

[Aquarium Dreams]

if one considers it an art, then one must submit to their work being critiqued as art. if one states that photography is all subjective, then by default he/she participates in photography as a hobby.

I agree! However, I wonder if this is when we get critiqued for being "elitist"?

Though following those guidelines, wouldn't it simply be a matter of tailoring critique to the person, as Hertz said? Someone with a goal of hanging in a NYC gallery would benefit from a different type of critique than someone who just takes portrait photos for a side business. Am I getting this right?? (Is that even elitist??)

As for giving critique? I do give it based on what I would do with the photo, after all, isn't that what critique is?

Is it? It seems that different people define critique differently.

Maybe there should be some guidelines about how to give critique, as well as an explanation of what it is, as a sticky in the critique forum. The sticky there now is more of a list of dos and don'ts, rather than a guide for what critique is and how best to give and receive it. If everyone defines "critique" differently, how can anyone benefit from it?

 

[motcon]

I agree! However, I wonder if this is when we get critiqued for being "elitist"?

mmm, no. this is when people get angry because some folks are educated and experienced. that is never considered elitist. if it were, my car mechanic is an elitist when he speaks to me about what i should do to my car.

Though following those guidelines, wouldn't it simply be a matter of tailoring critique to the person, as Hertz said? Someone with a goal of hanging in a NYC gallery would benefit from a different type of critique than someone who just takes portrait photos for a side business. Am I getting this right?? (Is that even elitist??)

yes and no. a landscape is a portrait is an interior design photo is a sky photo is a photo of a flower, etc. i'm speaking of fundamentals and they cross over to every aspect of 'art', regardless of subject, however; to Hertz's point, yes, tailoring a critique to an individual's photo fits perfectly.

'...perhaps a little more texture in ...'
'...i think it could benefit from a crop in the....'
'...try increasing local contrast and decreasing overall contrast...'

the bottom line here is that Hertz and i violently agree, we are just expressing it differently.

 

[motcon]

.

 

[Weaving Wax]

Is it? It seems that different people define critique differently.

Maybe there should be some guidelines about how to give critique, as well as an explanation of what it is, as a sticky in the critique forum. The sticky there now is more of a list of dos and don'ts, rather than a guide for what critique is and how best to give and receive it. If everyone defines "critique" differently, how can anyone benefit from it?

Well every time I see people's feedback or "critique" it's someone's opinion. That's how I feel anyway...doesn't mean I'm right.

 

[mysteryscribe]

Just to put my two cents in where it isnt wanted or needed, but alas I never could resist.

I believe you critique the image not the photographer. Don't matter to me who shot it or what it is going to used for. To me it's about the image being as good as it can be not anything else.

Just had to get my opinion, based in nothing at all, into the fray.

I honestly didn't mean to get involved in this kind of discussion but I'm weak.

 

[Aquarium Dreams]

Well every time I see people's feedback or "critique" it's someone's opinion. That's how I feel anyway...doesn't mean I'm right.

I'm not too clear on what critique is or should be, which is why I think there should be guidelines somewhere. There seems to be some difference of opinion as to what critique is, and I think people might benefit if we were at least talking about the same thing. I didn't mean any offense to you. I realize I'm lost about half the time, and I'm afraid that I'm lost the other half too, but haven't realize it yet.