Digital, Film, and Chimping

[amolitor]

Some other thread elsewhere reminded me of this.

I shoot film, and I shoot digital, and I work totally differently with them. I disdain chimping as much as anyone, and yet, it's an essential part of really *working* digitally. That constant feedback - I see, I shoot, I check the result as a 2D sketch, I see again, I shoot again. It's like painting, I am seeing the results of my work as I make it. It completely changes the way I work.

With film, I am vastly more slow and deliberative, and it's not entirely because I am limited to 2/10/36 exposures before I have to do some work. It's because I can't see the experiments in real time.

In fact, shooting digitally I actually have several different modes of working. I also do a non-chimping thing in a couple of different circumstances. Either I have confidence in what I am seeing, or events are unfolding too quickly. But for serious, deliberate work, where I have the time and want to find the right shot, I chimp like crazy.

How about you?

 

[480sparky]

I 'chimp' almost all the time. But not to really just look at the image on the monitor. I look mostly at the histograms as well as the image at 100%.

 

[KenC]

I do too. Since we have the ability to do it, why would one choose not to? I find that it usually confirms whatever I thought about how the shot would turn out, but I do it anyway just to catch the occasional mistakes.

 

[KmH]

When I 'chimp', which happens at the beginning of a series, I'm usually looking at the RGB histogram, not the actual photo.

Once I have established I have the exposure I want there is no need to waste time or attention looking at an un-calibrated 3" image on the rear LCD.

 

[480sparky]

.........there is no need to waste time or attention looking at an un-calibrated 3" image on the rear LCD.

With the possible exception being for framing.

 

[Derrel]

When I 'chimp', which happens at the beginning of a series, I'm usually looking at the RGB histogram, not the actual photo.

Once I have established I have the exposure I want there is no need to waste time or attention looking at an un-calibrated 3" image on the rear LCD.

This is similar to my normal working method. I don't spend much time at all looking at the LCD. I will usually go most of a day without reviewing stuff on the LCD. It's normally just a waste of time I think. I like to figure out the right exposure first, and then start shooting.

I dunno...digital has not changed my way of working very much from color slide film. They are quite similar, only digital has MORE latitude, so it's easier to work with. Both are color positive processes. I usually swing the meter around the scene and watch its indications, then meter an area I know will give me the kind of exposure I want. My previous cameras had crappy LCDs (Canon 5D--chitty LCD, low-rez, Nikon D2x very yellow and off-kilter color on the LCD,so it was USELESS for WB or tone evaluation), so I am used to NOT having a very good LCD to refer to. Over the past 11 to 7 years, the LCD has never really been all that good for me as a tool, so chimping has not been all that valuable most of the time, for me. Some of the newer cameras though, have better LCDs, so YMMV.

 

[Light Guru]

I mainly shoot 4x5 film these days. I personally love how it forces me so slow down and think my image more.

As for chomping and limitation of images like on film, I have heard of some photographers putting take over the LCD and then using an an old small memory card to limit the number of shorts or by putting a some large files on the memory card via a computer to fill up most of the space and limit you to only taking about 24 exposures.

 

[Buckster]

I chimp at the beginning of a session, when I'm dialing in, using it like a Polaroid back on a film camera. I chimp occasionally to make sure it's still on course during the shoot. Sometimes I chimp like crazy when I'm out just shooting anything and everything with no real purpose in mind. Sometimes I don't chimp at all, like when I'm firing like a machine gun or just don't really care because I'm just snap-shooting.

And now that I'm using my tablet tethered to the camera more and more to set up and review what I'm shooting in live view, I guess I'm technically chimping even more via that device's screen.

Either way, I don't "disdain" it or see a problem with it at all. It's just another tool, and I like having tools at my disposal.

The urge to not chimp and take steps to avoid it and talk about it like it's a bad thing is, to me, like someone in the early days of in-camera metering doing everything they can to not use it like it's a badge of honor or something - reasons that just escape me.

If you want to slow down, just f'ing slow the fk down! How hard is it? It's not uncommon for me to plan a shot for weeks, spend hours or even days setting it up, then dialing in each light and camera setting very deliberately, and then getting just half a dozen shots to complete the process. And I don't need to tape over my LCD or fill up my card to limit how much space is on it, or limit any other of the abilities of either my camera or myself in order to do it.

If you really want to be limited to 1/10/12/24/36 shots and nothing to chimp with, just go back to shooting film and call it a day.

Just my opinion...

 

[bratkinson]

These days, I'd have a big mess without chimping. In the course of 'getting started', I take a shot at a time, look, adjust settings, and repeat until satisfied. When moving to different lighting, I repeat the process. That part is a requirement to me, shooting almost 100% manual, after a 25 year gap from shooting mostly manual with 35mm.

A couple of weeks ago, I had a 3 hour evening session at church with a live orchestra, buffet dinner, and the display and auction at our annual Festival of the Giving Trees. This year, I knew what I was walking into and familiar with all my gear compared to last year walking in 'cold' with a new camera and new glass less than 24 hours prior. So I shot with 5 different lenses, switching lenses perhaps every 15 minutes or so. TWICE, I must have knocked the AF/MF switch on a lens back to MF while mounting it and failed to check it after mounting the lens. Perhaps I had simply put the lenses back that way, I don't know. But with the 5D3, seeing the dim grey AF focus point after it locks is 100% impossible in AI Servo in a quite dark gymnasium doubling as a banquet hall/festival area lit only by 60+ Christmas trees and the band members music stand lights. So not seeing one was 'normal'. And being hard of hearing, I had turned off the useless-to-me focus lock beeps. Only by checking the results after the first 5-10 shots with each lens did I realize I was MILES out of focus! Fortunately, I could reshoot most of the shots without any trouble.

 

[Tiberius47]

Chimp for three things.

Exposure (use the histogram!)
Focus.
Composition.

 

[amolitor]

I should clarify, looking at the technical information is a different thing, to me.

I meant glancing at the image itself, to see the translation from the world to the 2-dimensional rectangle, and allowing the view of that translation to inform the next shot. There's this fundamental difference between painting and photographing:

- the painter always has the partially finished work right there, the process of painting is a three-way interaction between the subject, the artist (who has an idea), and the painting
- the photographer has the subject and the artist

In traditional photography the artist still has a mental model, an idea, of the shot, but the reality of it is not visible until later. With the digital camera with the LCD, it's not. To be sure, it's not a great representation of the final product, but then neither is a few streaks of paint on a canvas. It's something, and I find that it fundamentally changes the way I work.

 

[Light Guru]

Buckster no you don't have to do those things but forcing your self to do something in a different way can help open your mind to new creative ideas.

I know I would approach shooting something quite different if I was limited to say 12 or 24 shots and not the hundreds normally available when shooting digital. I know this because I come from film and have had that limitation.

There are a large number of people doing photography now that have never shot and developed film. That's fine. Imposing limitations on yourself is an excellent way to force yourself to think different.

 

[Ysarex]

I should clarify, looking at the technical information is a different thing, to me.

I meant glancing at the image itself, to see the translation from the world to the 2-dimensional rectangle, and allowing the view of that translation to inform the next shot. There's this fundamental difference between painting and photographing: [snip]

Well, since my most used camera doesn't have an eye-level viewfinder but only an LCD I have to start out viewing that 2D rectangle before taking any shot. I guess I'm more like a painter then.

Back when I shot mostly view camera I recognized the difference between looking through an SLR and peering into the 3D world versus having that eye separation from the ground glass and seeing the 2D composition (albeit upside down and inside out). In the first instance it required a mental effort to train myself to see how the 3D experience would translate and in the second instance it required a mental effort to turn myself upside down and inside out (I preferred to stay on my feet using the view camera). Now with my LCD-only camera I have the advantage of the view camera experience without the need for a mental effort to stand on my head.

We work in a medium that uses sophisticated technological tools. I tell my students to imagine this scenario: You go on a trip of a lifetime -- Asian wonders of the world, Kathmandu, Angkor Watt, etc. You take a lot of photos and after weeks culling through them you have a presentation for family and friends (160 of your very best). It starts out good, but 50 photos in the kids have wandered away, OK, just the kids. But 80 photos in and some of the adults have lost attention and are quietly talking with each other. What did you do wrong? Are the photos that boring? Yes! You traveled 12,000 miles and saw the marvels of the East but you took every photo from the same d*mn place, 5 foot 10 inches above the ground -- of course they're boring.

If you're worried about how your tools are influencing how you work you're not in control. You can't make photographs without technological tools, you never could. I've got to agree with Buckster: Control your tools or your tools control you.

Joe

 

[Buckster]

Buckster no you don't have to do those things but forcing your self to do something in a different way can help open your mind to new creative ideas.

So, self control is not an option? You need to tape over the LCD and use the smallest CF card you can find?

I know I would approach shooting something quite different if I was limited to say 12 or 24 shots and not the hundreds normally available when shooting digital. I know this because I come from film and have had that limitation.

Me too. 30 years shooting film, so I'm coming from somewhere with my POV as well, thank you very much.

There are a large number of people doing photography now that have never shot and developed film. That's fine. Imposing limitations on yourself is an excellent way to force yourself to think different.

Two words: Self control. It's just not so difficult that it takes taping over the LCD and using 512MB CF cards with no backup while out in the field in order to slow down and think for a change.

Sorry, but after 30 years shooting film and another 13 shooting digital, the whole "OMG - Chimping is SO WRONG" thing comes off as bullspit and badge of honor nose in the air hokum to me, and always has, regardless of the shallow excuses I've seen for it (helps me slow down, helps me think, helps me... blah, blah, blah...).

 

[Light Guru]

Buckster no you don't have to do those things but forcing your self to do something in a different way can help open your mind to new creative ideas.

So, self control is not an option? You need to tape over the LCD and use the smallest CF card you can find?

I know I would approach shooting something quite different if I was limited to say 12 or 24 shots and not the hundreds normally available when shooting digital. I know this because I come from film and have had that limitation.

Me too. 30 years shooting film, so I'm coming from somewhere with my POV as well, thank you very much.

There are a large number of people doing photography now that have never shot and developed film. That's fine. Imposing limitations on yourself is an excellent way to force yourself to think different.

Two words: Self control. It's just not so difficult that it takes taping over the LCD and using 512MB CF cards with no backup while out in the field in order to slow down and think for a change.

Sorry, but after 30 years shooting film and another 13 shooting digital, the whole "OMG - Chimping is SO WRONG" thing comes off as bullspit and badge of honor nose in the air hokum to me, and always has, regardless of the shallow excuses I've seen for it (helps me slow down, helps me think, helps me... blah, blah, blah...).

Buckster yes you can do it via self control, but thats not the point the point is that limitations can and will force too think different.

I never said chimping was wrong or bad. When I shoot digital I do it quite often and have even been thinking of getting a Canon 6D to use the built in wifi feature together with my ipad.

You seem to be getting all worked up because I have given suggestions on things people "can" do. If you don't want to do it that way I don't care.

I've never taped over the LCD on my camera ether, but I have heard that some people find it helpful. Nor have I used a small memory card to limit the number of shots. But again there are people who have and they have found it to be a fun challenge.

You may be great at self control, but step back and look at the world today especially look at America, do the vast majority of people have great self control. NO they don't. America leads the world in being overweight and being in debt, now thats some self control.