Fire in the Belly

photoguy99 · Nov 13, 2014

So you get yourself a new camera. Or you dig up an old one. Or something. You start to really get into it, you're feeling good about the photos. They feel right. Maybe crazy, but they feel right. You're digging it.

So you roll in to someplace like TPF to show off your photos.

Let's face it, if you've got any fire in the belly at all, these photos are pretty terrible. You're overflowing with awful, creative, amazing, ideas. Awful. Creative. Amazing. All at once.

Your photos are cut to bits.

"The white thing in the corner totally 'draws my eye' and 'kills it'"
"You missed focus"
"You should use a flash"

and on and on. It's not just TPF, every forum has a bunch of stock critique they haul out. The hell of it is, it ain't wrong, necessarily. Follow their advice and you'll get technically better photos out, no doubt. Also, you'll maybe get photos out that other people like better.

Do you want to get into commercial photography? Taking Senior Portraits and so on? Stop reading here, and just pay attention to the TPF critique. There are lots of people on here who know what sells, and they'll help you start making those photos.

Still reading? Ok, you probably don't care about taking Senior Portraits or shooting Weddings, or whatever. That's cool too.

The critique is still pretty handy. But don't use it as a benchmark for what's right. If you believe in that, you're going to learn to take cookie-cutter photos. The fire in your belly will eventually get stomped out, and you'll be nominated for Photo Of The Month in no time at all. Your pictures will be sharp, balanced, pretty, and emotionally dead.

Use the critique to learn what you like. If you're not commercial, you're the only person who matters. Maybe the white thing draws your eye too. Maybe that's exactly what's been bugging you about the photo. Great! Maybe not.

Don't let 'em put out the fire in the belly. They're your photos. They're your ideas, no matter how crazy and awful. Keep at it, keep thinking about it. Pay attention to what people say, but don't let them overrule your ideas. Instead, let them help you refine your ideas and lead you to what you've been trying to do all along. Keep the fire in the belly alive, fan the flames. Do the work that pleases you.

Patrice · Nov 13, 2014

Submitting photos and simply asking for critique is very often counter productive. A better approach is to examine your photos critically and if your happy then good, then if you want submit your photos in a 'sharing' forum. However if there is some aspect or technique you're not sure about then submit for critique/comments while specifically mentioning the issue you are concerned with. This will likely result in the more knowledgeable members suggesting techniques and proffering advice that specifically address.

Derrel · Nov 13, 2014

And make sure to shoot EVERY SINGLE PHOTO in horizontal camera orientation while you're at it too! Wide-open, if at all possible!!! :1219:

Patrice · Nov 13, 2014

In addition to Derrel's most excellent advice, be sure to always always always use only available lighting.

18.percent.gary · Nov 13, 2014

That was kind of a confusing post. Are you saying Seniors and Weddings are commercial photography? It's not, it's retail and the you better give consideration to the client's input and opinion. Even if it means following the current fad of landscape orientation and shallow depth of field or whatever else they may expect.

If you're saying not to worry about what people think of your photos that weren't taken specifically for a client then, yeah, I agree 100% with your post.

photoguy99 · Nov 13, 2014

Is 'commercial photography' a term of art? I meant it as a blanket term for 'photography for a paying client' and perhaps it didn't mean quite that.

Forkie · Nov 14, 2014

photoguy99 said:
So you get yourself a new camera. Or you dig up an old one. Or something. You start to really get into it, you're feeling good about the photos. They feel right. Maybe crazy, but they feel right. You're digging it.

So you roll in to someplace like TPF to show off your photos.

Let's face it, if you've got any fire in the belly at all, these photos are pretty terrible. You're overflowing with awful, creative, amazing, ideas. Awful. Creative. Amazing. All at once.

Your photos are cut to bits.

"The white thing in the corner totally 'draws my eye' and 'kills it'"
"You missed focus"
"You should use a flash"

and on and on. It's not just TPF, every forum has a bunch of stock critique they haul out. The hell of it is, it ain't wrong, necessarily. Follow their advice and you'll get technically better photos out, no doubt. Also, you'll maybe get photos out that other people like better.

Do you want to get into commercial photography? Taking Senior Portraits and so on? Stop reading here, and just pay attention to the TPF critique. There are lots of people on here who know what sells, and they'll help you start making those photos.

Still reading? Ok, you probably don't care about taking Senior Portraits or shooting Weddings, or whatever. That's cool too.

The critique is still pretty handy. But don't use it as a benchmark for what's right. If you believe in that, you're going to learn to take cookie-cutter photos. The fire in your belly will eventually get stomped out, and you'll be nominated for Photo Of The Month in no time at all. Your pictures will be sharp, balanced, pretty, and emotionally dead.

Use the critique to learn what you like. If you're not commercial, you're the only person who matters. Maybe the white thing draws your eye too. Maybe that's exactly what's been bugging you about the photo. Great! Maybe not.

Don't let 'em put out the fire in the belly. They're your photos. They're your ideas, no matter how crazy and awful. Keep at it, keep thinking about it. Pay attention to what people say, but don't let them overrule your ideas. Instead, let them help you refine your ideas and lead you to what you've been trying to do all along. Keep the fire in the belly alive, fan the flames. Do the work that pleases you.

I kind of half agree with this, but also think that if you're taking photos purely for yourself and don't care about the white thing; or the rule of thirds; or the balance of positive and negative space, etc., then why put them up for critique at all? Why not just put them up and say "Hey here are the photos I took today, enjoy!" or just print them and put them on your own wall?

The advice people give on this forum is from people who know what makes a successful photo (or are at least learning what makes one and are applying their new knowledge!) and are also trying to reach that perfect combination of technical proficiency and composition themselves. Critique comes from hindsight and taking a step back after the photo has been taken to analyse what a photo could have been had the photographer thought of everything at the time the shot was taken. Someone could easily borrow an Ansel Adams shot from Google, put it up here for CC and it would still get all the same advice that Billy NoMates would get. No one will ever think of everything when they take a shot, which is why, no matter how technically perfect a shot is, someone will always have something to say about how they would have composed it differently or vice versa.

It doesn't matter whether you prefer "commercial" photography, street photography, product photography, wildlife, astrophotography, portraits, nudes, architecture or whatever, successful photographs are successful because they follow a tried and tested method of isolating a subject through the same mathematical/compositional techniques that have been followed for centuries. There are many compositional and technical qualities to a successful photograph and every photograph ever taken will have a combination of some of them but very few, if any, will encompass all of them at the same time and there will always be someone there to pick up on the missing elements.

This is why art is subjective and why no one should ever take critique personally. Different people pick up on different negative or positive elements of a photograph and that element, whichever it is, will dominate the photo for that person. If you put up a photo you love for critique and it gets panned, more fool you for putting it up. If you are happy with a photograph you've taken you don't need critique, you're already happy with it.

This is why I rarely put photos up for critique. If I'm happy with a photo - I don't need your opinion, I'm happy with it as it is, thanks. I might put photos I'm happy with up to share with the forum, because I like people to see them, but that's all. If I have a photo I'm not sure about, or want to know why it's not working, then I'll put a shot up for critique because through everyone's "standard" advice, the technical or compositional problem will no doubt be picked up by at least one of the critics.

Forkie · Nov 14, 2014

photoguy99 said:
Is 'commercial photography' a term of art? I meant it as a blanket term for 'photography for a paying client' and perhaps it didn't mean quite that.

I might be wrong but I think in this context the term "commercial photography" generally applies to photographs of people or otherwise that could be used to sell a service or product (or at least in the style of) rather than be saleable itself.

I do know that in the entertainment industry actors' headshots are considered "commercial" if the shot conveys a personality that would work well in a TV advert rather than in theatre or film, for example, and an actor would do well not to use a commercial headshot to try to get an audition for the next movie about the holocaust.

photoguy99 · Nov 14, 2014

Critique can be a mirror. Other people can help us to see and understand better what we like ourselves. What matters.

Some schmo, maybe even one of those filthy Gophers fans, might tell you to shoot vertical. You might think it over and decide "nope" but you might also have an a-ha moment. You might say "Oh man, I've been stuck in this rut, and that's totally what I wanted!"

I've gotten a lot of critique over the years and years and years. I've developed, partly as a result of it, a pretty broad toolbox of things I can do to get what I want. It's not everything possible, but it's a pretty big toolbox and it suits my needs. Too many tools can be as bad as not enough, in truth. But you need some breadth.

Just don't take critique as prescriptive. It's a mirror, not a cookbook.

TiffanyW · Nov 14, 2014

I haven't posted a lot of photos on here yet, but I never hesitate to ask for critiques. Usually, I take the critique as a grain of salt because I've noticed that some of the advice I have received is more of an opinion than an actual technical critique. I'm new to this all and so I do need somebody to tell me that my lighting is terrible, or my composition is way off, etc etc.

As terrible as I may be at the moment, I realize that I have nowhere to go but up, and even if 9/10 people that comment on my photo say it is a lousy excuse of a picture, (That's just an example. I've never seen anyone on here be THAT aggressive. lol) if I like it...then it is a good picture to me and I will certainly try to apply the advice I have been given the next time I shoot.

Derrel · Nov 14, 2014

It's pretty challenging to respond to a small squad of elite,well-trained, prepared Strawmen Soliders...in these types of incursions, the attacking Stawmen usually hold the upper hand...

Designer · Nov 14, 2014

What brought this on?

Derrel · Nov 14, 2014

photoguy99 said:
So you get yourself a new camera. Or you dig up an old one. Or something. You start to really get into it, you're feeling good about the photos. They feel right. Maybe crazy, but they feel right. You're digging it.

So you roll in to someplace like TPF to show off your photos.

Let's face it, if you've got any fire in the belly at all, these photos are pretty terrible. You're overflowing with awful, creative, amazing, ideas. Awful. Creative. Amazing. All at once.

Your photos are cut to bits.

"The white thing in the corner totally 'draws my eye' and 'kills it'"
"You missed focus"
"You should use a flash"

and on and on. It's not just TPF, every forum has a bunch of stock critique they haul out. The hell of it is, it ain't wrong, necessarily. Follow their advice and you'll get technically better photos out, no doubt. Also, you'll maybe get photos out that other people like better.

Do you want to get into commercial photography? Taking Senior Portraits and so on? Stop reading here, and just pay attention to the TPF critique. There are lots of people on here who know what sells, and they'll help you start making those photos.

Still reading? Ok, you probably don't care about taking Senior Portraits or shooting Weddings, or whatever. That's cool too.

The critique is still pretty handy. But don't use it as a benchmark for what's right. If you believe in that, you're going to learn to take cookie-cutter photos. The fire in your belly will eventually get stomped out, and you'll be nominated for Photo Of The Month in no time at all. Your pictures will be sharp, balanced, pretty, and emotionally dead.

Use the critique to learn what you like. If you're not commercial, you're the only person who matters. Maybe the white thing draws your eye too. Maybe that's exactly what's been bugging you about the photo. Great! Maybe not.

Don't let 'em put out the fire in the belly. They're your photos. They're your ideas, no matter how crazy and awful. Keep at it, keep thinking about it. Pay attention to what people say, but don't let them overrule your ideas. Instead, let them help you refine your ideas and lead you to what you've been trying to do all along. Keep the fire in the belly alive, fan the flames. Do the work that pleases you.

Huh?

photoguy99 · Nov 14, 2014

Whuuuut?

JoeW · Nov 14, 2014

Photoguy99...I'd argue that if you have "fire in the belly" then:

1. You WANT critique, you hunger to get better, you have drive that demands...no SCREAMS out that you should get better. And so you insist on C&C. Show me someone who won't submit to C&C or doesn't hunger for criticism and I'll show you someone with no "fire in the belly"...they aren't eager to get good, they just want compliments.

2. And critique won't turn you off from shooting. People who do not have "fire in the belly" will get some criticism and tune out or get intimidated. People with "fire in the belly" don't let criticism shut them down, they learn from it or they learn what to discount.

What C&C does is provide perspective. It doesn't show you the "right" way to do something. It provides another perspective. And in my experience, someone who is brand new to something, just starting out all eager and excited usually has zero, zip, zilch perspective. They see a scene and love it...but they haven't trained their eye to notice the telephone pole coming out of the subject's head, the empty coke cans in the foreground that provide a distraction and the hotspot that is so bright it draws the viewer's eye immediately (ignoring the subject).