First Show- what kind of printing?

[fancymotmot]

I just scored my first show in a local gallery. I'm wanting to sell my prints and I want them to look their best and be worth their price. I've looked at local shops that do c-prints and online services such as bayphoto and finerworks that sell prints in 8x10 for 2.33 to giclee prints unmounted on archival matte paper for about $6. Before I found that I was seeing giclee prints for about $30. I'm really confused with these extreme differences in price. Is a $2.33 digital print far inferior than a $28 giclee? I guess my prints would fall in the "street photography/photojournalism" category so I'm not sure if giclee canvas prints are suitable since the examples I've seen look like paintings. I'm mainly wanting to hear from professional photographers who have had their prints in galleries... how do you get your photographs printed?

Much appreciated!

 

[Ysarex]

I'm putting a show together now as well. I do my own printing using either Epson 3880, 4800 or Canon 9000 printers. I use papers from Hahnemühle, Canson and Legion.

I think it's fine to have the prints made for you. Your concern then will be quality and price. Quality, especially if you do plan to sell the prints, breaks down into image quality and image stability.

Be suspicious of the term giclee. It was originally invented about 20 years ago to identify inkjet prints made on an Scitex/Iris printer -- long since out-of-business. Giclee simply means an inkjet print, typically made today on the type of printers I'm using. I call them inkjet prints, not giclee prints. People who use the term giclee today when they're trying to sell you something usually intend it to mean, "I hope we have another $ucker here."

The cheapest prints from the standpoint of material costs are the C or RA4 prints that you noted. I use MPix and Adorama to get those type of prints made and I've been pleased with the results from both. Given their low material costs the prints are inexpensive. I use them when my print needs aren't as serious, but I will say they always do a surprisingly good job for me in terms of image quality. I have a dozen prints on display right now at one of the colleges where I teach and I couldn't have made them myself for the per-print price I paid from MPix (on sale). These prints are hopefully made using Fuji Crystal Archive paper. The name of the paper is a lie, but on average (depending on display conditions) you're looking at 30 years to fade or less. This is a complicated topic with a lot of variability. The issue for you is that if you sell a print and accept payment what is your responsibility if any when the print fades? How long will it take it to fade?

Back to inkjet: If (that's a big if) you use the right inks and right paper combinations an inkjet print is going to have from 3 to 4 times the life of those C/RA4 prints. That's a big factor for me. At my age I've lived long enough to see virtually all the early color photography I created fade away -- it's an unsettling experience especially as I see myself doing the same. You can do the appropriate research here: Wilhelm Imaging Research

One more factor that goes to image quality. The C/RA4 prints offer you a very limited range of print surfaces that extend from butt ugly to pitifully ugly. They are resin-coated paper stock and no matter what you do they will always have the ugly look of the plastic they're made from. The high quality inkjet paper manufacturers on the other hand provide a large array of simply beautiful paper surfaces to chose from -- a major reason I make my own serious prints.

Joe

P.S. Congrats on the show.

 

[KmH]

A giclée is a very high quality inkjet print. Solvent based, archival inks/dyes are used, the print machine uses many ink colors, and the dots-per-inch resolution is very high.
It takes a substantial amount of time, and a lot of ink to print a high quality giclée pixel-by-pixel. Archival, solvent based inks/dyes cost a lot more than home printer inks/dyes.

C-prints have a light sensitive, 3 layer emulsion on one side of the paper. The entire sheet of paper is exposed in one fell swoop, and then is chemically developed (see RA-4 process).
C-prints require a lot less time to print compared to a high quality giclée, plus the c-print paper/emulsion is less expensive than the inks/dyes and paper used to make a giclée

The printing method, paper type, or substrate I used for showing prints depended on the image(s) being printed.
I always viewed the cost of printing as much less important, or expensive, than the cost of presentation.

How will the prints be mounted and displayed?

 

[Ysarex]

A giclée is a very high quality inkjet print. Solvent based, archival inks/dyes are used, the print machine uses many ink colors, and the dots-per-inch resolution is very high.
It takes a substantial amount of time, and a lot of ink to print a high quality giclée pixel-by-pixel. Archival, solvent based inks/dyes cost a lot more than home printer inks/dyes.

C-prints have a light sensitive, 3 layer emulsion on one side of the paper. The entire sheet of paper is exposed in one fell swoop, and then is chemically developed (see RA-4 process).
C-prints require a lot less time to print compared to a high quality giclée, plus the c-print paper/emulsion is less expensive than the inks/dyes and paper used to make a giclée

The printing method, paper type, or substrate I used for showing prints depended on the image(s) being printed.
I always viewed the cost of printing as much less important, or expensive, than the cost of presentation.

How will the prints be mounted and displayed?

I'm not buying that definition for giclee -- very high quality inkjet versus what -- medium high quality or just medium quality? Yes, different printers and inks and paper make a huge quality difference in the world of inkjet, BUT there is no industry defined and adhered to standard for what differentiates a giclee print from an inkjet print -- caveat emptor.

Joe

 

[MLeeK]

Print in what is appropriate for the image. Some images are meant to be metallic, some watercolor paper, some prints in plain old matte or gloss, canvas, giclee...
What is the look you are wanting to present? That's where the decision is made.
Don't show an 8x10, for God's sake! Show big, sell big. DO NOT SKIMP!

 

[tirediron]

A giclée print is an ink-jet print. Nothing more, nothing less. There are no standards of quality associated with, although there is an impession of quality that many try and attach to the term. Somewhere along the line, someone decided that "inkjet" sounded to plebian and mangled a French word so that it sounded better. Look up "Photofinishing" in your local Yellow Pages, and actually go and visit the shops, ask for samples of their products, including different papers, materials, and finishes and find out if they provide colour-profiles you can download. As MLeek said, this is NOT the time to scrimp. I would be expecting to pay in the area of $30 for a fine-art, archival quality 16x30 print.

 

[fancymotmot]

Thanks for all your input! I've been doing research and I've learned that Giclee prints are done through a inkjet printer and C-prints are done through a lab with photo paper and chemical reactions (old-school). Please correct me if I'm wrong. Other than that, the more I look into it, the more confused I get. I've been looking at the SF Cameraworks website and noticing that in the description of prints showing there, most of the digital prints are C-prints or Chromogenic (pls tell me those are the same thing or I'm going to be even more confused). There was only one that I saw labeled as Giclee. Based on that, I thought to myself that chromogenic is the way to go. Then I looked at the frameworks blog and found the article about inkjet vs lab prints which ends with this statement:

If someone is looking to produce some prints for the family or simply to decorate their home, the lab prints offer value and quality. But when someone comes to me and they say they want to get the best photo print possible for their next show or competition I steer them toward our inkjet product line.

A yi yi! That just concluded the exact opposite of what I was thinking before. The more I chase after the "correct answer", the further away it seems to get. Is it all really just a matter of opinion?

tirediron, is that $30 for a inkjet or lab print?

 

[Ysarex]

Thanks for all your input! I've been doing research and I've learned that Giclee prints are done through a inkjet printer and C-prints are done through a lab with photo paper and chemical reactions (old-school). Please correct me if I'm wrong. Other than that, the more I look into it, the more confused I get. I've been looking at the SF Cameraworks website and noticing that in the description of prints showing there, most of the digital prints are C-prints or Chromogenic (pls tell me those are the same thing or I'm going to be even more confused). There was only one that I saw labeled as Giclee. Based on that, I thought to myself that chromogenic is the way to go. Then I looked at the frameworks blog and found the article about inkjet vs lab prints which ends with this statement:

If someone is looking to produce some prints for the family or simply to decorate their home, the lab prints offer value and quality. But when someone comes to me and they say they want to get the best photo print possible for their next show or competition I steer them toward our inkjet product line.

A yi yi! That just concluded the exact opposite of what I was thinking before. The more I chase after the "correct answer", the further away it seems to get. Is it all really just a matter of opinion?

tirediron, is that $30 for a inkjet or lab print?

C-prints and Chromogenic are the same thing. Chromogenic is just like the term giclee -- it's used to charge you more for the same thing. You may also encounter the label RA4 attached to the C print -- again the same thing.

You basically have two process choices. C-print and inkjet. There's a third process out there called dye-sublimation which is used in the kiosks that let you walk up and make a print on the spot, but it's rarely offered otherwise. The material costs to make the C-print are really low compared to the inkjet. If the C-print process is fully automated and they are moving large volume through the system they can make a profit charging you $2.50 for an 8x10. They can also make the C-print faster which helps them increase the volume. If you send a good original through their process and the business is working hard to maintain the equipment in top functioning condition, you can get a very respectable image out the other end at a very low cost.

An 8x10 inkjet print made with the best materials will have a materials cost at or above $3.00. They're slower to make which reduces volume potential. So the inkjet print is going to cost you more. In terms of quality; the image quality between the two processes is very close. The high-end inkjet print paper looks better, but the low-end inkjet print paper is no better. Regardless of the process used the biggest difference you're going to encounter is price for labor.

$30.00. What does $30.00 get you? It takes your print out of the volume production line and gets you a real person with some real skill to watch over the process and make sure you get the best possible result. It might get you someone to talk to. You're paying for skilled labor.

Joe

 

[tirediron]

...tirediron, is that $30 for a inkjet or lab print?

Archival quality, fine-art lab print.

 

[Helen B]

C-prints or Chromogenic (pls tell me those are the same thing or I'm going to be even more confused).

Nowadays C-print is considered as just an abbreviation for chromogenic print, and the description 'chromogenic' predates the use of 'C-print', so 'chromogenic' wasn't invented to be posher than C-print. There's no difference in connotation or meaning, and I've never seen a difference in price because of the use of the complete word rather than the abbreviation, so don't be put off by the use of 'chromogenic'.

As already mentioned, there is a very wide variation in what is called inkjet and giclee. The predicted longevity depends on the printer, the ink and the paper - all three. The best inkjet prints should outlast the best C-prints. The worst inkjet prints probably won't outlast the worst C-prints. In general, good inkjet prints will have a greater colour gamut (ie more colours are possible) than a good C-print. This may or may not matter to you. There are more surface finishes available for inkjets than for C-prints, but the choices are different. It's probably easier to shop for C-prints than it is to shop for inkjet prints, because of the variety available. Like Ysarex, I print my own inkjets and one of the main reasons is total control over paper and ink. I would be suspicious of really cheap inkjet prints - they take longer to produce than a C-print, and ink and paper is expensive.

There is good information about predicted longevity at Aardenburg Imaging.

 

[MK3Brent]

A very important question people should be asking is: "What kind of lighting will they be displayed under?"

You may need to manipulate the type of medium you're printing on to accommodate the lighting.
If you've ever entered a photo competition, you'll notice that very harsh bright light is shown on the piece.
Some print companies know this, and offer a "competition" print package that adjust the print exposure accordingly.

FYI.