Flu shots, should they be required?

[BGeise]

If the job requires it, okay, but should the job require it? I understand the reason why nurses and teachers would be required - they are more at risk of getting the flu and transmitting it to people who are more vulnerable to it (sick people and children) and who could have more serious consequences if they get the flu. There's a question of public health involved.

Having said that, there should be (and I think there is) an option to waive the requirement, either temporarily or permanently, depending on the circumstances.

My mother works in a pre-school and had to start getting the flu shot. One year, she started feeling numbness in her hands and feet. Didn't know what caused it. The next year, right after she had the flu shot, she ended up in the hospital with Guillain-Barre, an auto-immune syndrome. The body attacks the peripheral nervous system. And yes, it can be the result of a reaction to the flu shot.

She doesn't get the shot anymore and her job waives her requirement to do so. And because there's still a question about whether or not this kind of reaction is hereditary, I don't get the flu shot either. (To be honest, I never got a flu shot before that, either.)

If someone has an adverse reaction to the shot, of course, they can't require it. But, if they don't have any allergies or reactions to it and it's required by the job, then they need to do it to keep the job.

It's not that I just"don't believe" in them. The information shows that all of the things you hear about how the vaccine does so many great things is biased information that the vaccine manufacturers and your government have tailored to fit what they need to portray to the public. The fact is that your chance of getting influenza decreases from 2% to 1% and that is if the vaccine is perfectly manufactured to fit the strain in the environment which is almost impossible because the influenza virus is always changing. Also the facts show that children under 6 months of age did not show any significant results to require vaccination and children under 2 years of age have the risk of cataplexy, narcolepsy and febrile convulsions.

Here is the real facts:
Vaccines for preventing influenza in healthy children. - PubMed - NCBI
Vaccines for preventing influenza in healthy adults. - PubMed - NCBI

It's easy to find data to support your own beliefs (see below).

The problem arises when you're not a doctor and you didn't do the study. You can read this, but can you actually understand what it means on a day to day basis, including all the nuances that you can't learn from reading a study? I'm not in the medical field, so I'll just make an informed decision after listening to my doctor and reading studies. In the end, I'd rather be safe than sorry.

Influenza vaccine given to pregnant women reduces hospitalization d... - PubMed - NCBI
The efficacy of live attenuated, cold-adapted, trivalent, intranasa... - PubMed - NCBI
Effectiveness of influenza vaccine in reducing hospital admissions in people with diabetes.
Influenza vaccination in secondary prevention from coronary ischaem... - PubMed - NCBI
Effectiveness of Influenza Vaccine Against Life-threatening RT-PCR-confirmed Influenza Illness in US Children, 2010–2012
Relation between influenza vaccination and outpatient visits, hospi... - PubMed - NCBI
Influenza vaccination reduces cardiovascular events in patients wit... - PubMed - NCBI
Effectiveness of seasonal vaccine in preventing confirmed influenza... - PubMed - NCBI
Effectiveness of influenza vaccine for preventing laboratory-confir... - PubMed - NCBI
Association between influenza vaccination and cardiovascular outcom... - PubMed - NCBI

Yes it is easy to find information to support my belief. The problem is how hard it is to find substantial evidence to discredit it. There is a lot of estimating and guessing with "the results". Also the only way you can refuse a shot is religious beliefs or medical issues. So I think I am going to make my own religion that does not allow them[emoji6]

 

[limr]

Well, Happy Festivus to you, then!

 

[BGeise]

Well, Happy Festivus to you, then!

I have always wanted to lead a cult.

 

[waday]

If someone has an adverse reaction to the shot, of course, they can't require it. But, if they don't have any allergies or reactions to it and it's required by the job, then they need to do it to keep the job.

Yes, but my point was that this is begging the question. The question in the OP was asking if a job should require employees to take a flu shot. Saying "Yes because the job requires it" is not answering that question.

<snip>
I guess in my book I think we shouldn't ever have to put something into our bodies that we don't want and your job shouldn't require so. What do you guys think?

If I say that I don't believe in using a computer because it's the devil, my employer will say tough noogies, it's required.

So, "Yes the job requires it" because if someone is around people with compromised immune systems, getting something to prevent the spread of infection is similar to a tool-of-the-trade.

If the job requires it, okay, but should the job require it? I understand the reason why nurses and teachers would be required - they are more at risk of getting the flu and transmitting it to people who are more vulnerable to it (sick people and children) and who could have more serious consequences if they get the flu. There's a question of public health involved.

Having said that, there should be (and I think there is) an option to waive the requirement, either temporarily or permanently, depending on the circumstances.

My mother works in a pre-school and had to start getting the flu shot. One year, she started feeling numbness in her hands and feet. Didn't know what caused it. The next year, right after she had the flu shot, she ended up in the hospital with Guillain-Barre, an auto-immune syndrome. The body attacks the peripheral nervous system. And yes, it can be the result of a reaction to the flu shot.

She doesn't get the shot anymore and her job waives her requirement to do so. And because there's still a question about whether or not this kind of reaction is hereditary, I don't get the flu shot either. (To be honest, I never got a flu shot before that, either.)

If someone has an adverse reaction to the shot, of course, they can't require it. But, if they don't have any allergies or reactions to it and it's required by the job, then they need to do it to keep the job.

It's not that I just"don't believe" in them. The information shows that all of the things you hear about how the vaccine does so many great things is biased information that the vaccine manufacturers and your government have tailored to fit what they need to portray to the public. The fact is that your chance of getting influenza decreases from 2% to 1% and that is if the vaccine is perfectly manufactured to fit the strain in the environment which is almost impossible because the influenza virus is always changing. Also the facts show that children under 6 months of age did not show any significant results to require vaccination and children under 2 years of age have the risk of cataplexy, narcolepsy and febrile convulsions.

Here is the real facts:
Vaccines for preventing influenza in healthy children. - PubMed - NCBI
Vaccines for preventing influenza in healthy adults. - PubMed - NCBI

It's easy to find data to support your own beliefs (see below).

The problem arises when you're not a doctor and you didn't do the study. You can read this, but can you actually understand what it means on a day to day basis, including all the nuances that you can't learn from reading a study? I'm not in the medical field, so I'll just make an informed decision after listening to my doctor and reading studies. In the end, I'd rather be safe than sorry.

Influenza vaccine given to pregnant women reduces hospitalization d... - PubMed - NCBI
The efficacy of live attenuated, cold-adapted, trivalent, intranasa... - PubMed - NCBI
Effectiveness of influenza vaccine in reducing hospital admissions in people with diabetes.
Influenza vaccination in secondary prevention from coronary ischaem... - PubMed - NCBI
Effectiveness of Influenza Vaccine Against Life-threatening RT-PCR-confirmed Influenza Illness in US Children, 2010–2012
Relation between influenza vaccination and outpatient visits, hospi... - PubMed - NCBI
Influenza vaccination reduces cardiovascular events in patients wit... - PubMed - NCBI
Effectiveness of seasonal vaccine in preventing confirmed influenza... - PubMed - NCBI
Effectiveness of influenza vaccine for preventing laboratory-confir... - PubMed - NCBI
Association between influenza vaccination and cardiovascular outcom... - PubMed - NCBI

Yes it is easy to find information to support my belief. The problem is how hard it is to find substantial evidence to discredit it. There is a lot of estimating and guessing with "the results". Also the only way you can refuse a shot is religious beliefs or medical issues. So I think I am going to make my own religion that does not allow them[emoji6]

We should all just join the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

 

[BGeise]

Like it or not we are herd animals. We all eat, **** and mingle with other members of the herd all the time. Viruses like the flu love herd animals as it gives it an easy way to spread.

Getting a flu shot is not only helpful to you but could save the life of others around you. Not getting one is selfish.

Gonna disagree with your second comment you are just as likely to get the virus from touching a door handle as you are letting me luck your face when I am sick.

 

[tirediron]

...Getting a flu shot is not only could be helpful to you, but could save the life of others around you. Not getting one is selfish a personal choice.

Mehh... a bit of a grand statement I think. Having worked in some of the best breeding conditions for disease transmission in the modern world (a ship, at sea where anywhere from 10 - 50 people share the same sleeping, eating and sanitary facilities, and where a significant number of those have young children at home), I will speak from experience: I have not had the flu in 30+ years with the exception of the one year that as an operational requirement I was required to get the flu vaccine. I'm not a doctor, nor do I play one on television, but that statement is fact, and conclusive enough for me.

We should also bear in mind that it is impossible to truly erradicate a disease. Reduce it? Absolutely, but actually erradicate it? Can't do it. Our immune systems are like race horses. If they're not exercised regularily, over time they will become ineffective and once that happens, a generally minor condition such as the flu, or even a cold could wipe out huge swaths of the population in no time.

 

[runnah]

...Getting a flu shot is not only could be helpful to you, but could save the life of others around you. Not getting one is selfish a personal choice.

Mehh... a bit of a grand statement I think. Having worked in some of the best breeding conditions for disease transmission in the modern world (a ship, at sea where anywhere from 10 - 50 people share the same sleeping, eating and sanitary facilities, and where a significant number of those have young children), I will speak from experience: I have not had the flu in 30+ years with the exception of the one year that as an operational requirement I was required to get the flu vaccine. I'm not a doctor, nor do I play one on television, but that statement is fact, and conclusive enough for me.

We should also bear in mind that it is impossible to truly erradicate a disease. Reduce it? Absolutely, but actually erradicate it? Can't do it. Our immune systems are like race horses. If they're not exercised regularily, over time they will become ineffective and once that happens, a generally minor condition such as the flu, or even a cold could wipe out huge swaths of the population in no time.

You guys are missing the point. It's not about the individual it's about the group.

The bolded part is just untrue. You are confusing bacterial and viral infections.

 

[tirediron]

You guys are missing the point. It's not about the individual it's about the group.

I'm the only group I really care about.

The bolded part is just untrue. You are confusing bacterial and viral infections.

Okay, as I said, I'm not a doctor. Explain to me then how it works. I am injecting "dead" disease into my body so that my immune system can create antibodies which will "kill" the live disease when I come in contact with it, correct? Over time (I'm talking generations, not a couple of years), the virus is going to adapt and overcome. Had our immune systems been allowed to evolve naturally, they would, I suspect be much more able to combat the disease.

 

[runnah]

I'm the only group I really care about.

Okay, as I said, I'm not a doctor. Explain to me then how it works. I am injecting "dead" disease into my body so that my immune system can create antibodies which will "kill" the live disease when I come in contact with it, correct? Over time (I'm talking generations, not a couple of years), the virus is going to adapt and overcome. Had our immune systems been allowed to evolve naturally, they would, I suspect be much more able to combat the disease.

Well that's just plain rude.


The bolded part is just laughable. It could be possible if we all stayed in our own little bubble and never traveled. We do as humans become adapted to our "range". You get used to the polloen and spores, the water, the food etc.. The problem comes from when you have people traveling to different eco systems and cross contaminating.

The other issue is the human toll. Diseases like small pox, polio, measles etc... all costs many lives. To eliminate these diseases the whole population had to be vaccinated.

 

[BGeise]

...Getting a flu shot is not only could be helpful to you, but could save the life of others around you. Not getting one is selfish a personal choice.

Mehh... a bit of a grand statement I think. Having worked in some of the best breeding conditions for disease transmission in the modern world (a ship, at sea where anywhere from 10 - 50 people share the same sleeping, eating and sanitary facilities, and where a significant number of those have young children), I will speak from experience: I have not had the flu in 30+ years with the exception of the one year that as an operational requirement I was required to get the flu vaccine. I'm not a doctor, nor do I play one on television, but that statement is fact, and conclusive enough for me.

We should also bear in mind that it is impossible to truly erradicate a disease. Reduce it? Absolutely, but actually erradicate it? Can't do it. Our immune systems are like race horses. If they're not exercised regularily, over time they will become ineffective and once that happens, a generally minor condition such as the flu, or even a cold could wipe out huge swaths of the population in no time.

You guys are missing the point. It's not about the individual it's about the group.

The bolded part is just untrue. You are confusing bacterial and viral infections.

The influenza vaccine is designed to combat viral infections. However it would have to be the exact strain of the virus to reduce your chances of getting it from 2% to 1%. Bacterial infections are what we more commonly see and mistake for the flu virus when is most likely a upper respite infection

 

[runnah]

Okay, as I said, I'm not a doctor. Explain to me then how it works.

How about I link.

Viral evolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

THis one is a monster but a good read.
Origins and Evolution of Antibiotic Resistance

 

[bribrius]

You guys are missing the point. It's not about the individual it's about the group.

I'm the only group I really care about.

The bolded part is just untrue. You are confusing bacterial and viral infections.

Okay, as I said, I'm not a doctor. Explain to me then how it works. I am injecting "dead" disease into my body so that my immune system can create antibodies which will "kill" the live disease when I come in contact with it, correct? Over time (I'm talking generations, not a couple of years), the virus is going to adapt and overcome. Had our immune systems been allowed to evolve naturally, they would, I suspect be much more able to combat the disease.

this makes no sense. when you touch a door handle and catch something the immune system responds and to some extent next time you touch it the immune system may cope with it even better as it has already fought a similar threat before. Is what you are alluding to. The vaccination is the same exact thing except you are being exposed to safe versions of them in a dead form and many of them at once (depending on the yearly flu shot cocktail they change them depending on what is traveling around).
so there really isn't anything unnatural about the vaccination, it work in the same principle as what you are alluding too. Using your bodies natural response to develop a higher tolerance. A safer, introduction to the organisms lets say, than the whatever you pick up off the door handle example..allowing your immune system to develop a response to it once introduced.

 

[runnah]

I think everyone needs to watch this because there is lots of misinformation going on. It might be a bit advanced for some...

 

[Gary A.]

My best friend is a physician. He gets the shot every year. He strongly suggests others follow suit. He has his own private practice but at the hospitals where he has privileges, the hospital policies are to get the shot or wear a mask. I haven't performed my own research, but I have a lot of trust in what he says. Even if the above numbers are true, 2% to 1%, that is a 50% reduction in occurrences. My mother, a RN, also endorsed vaccinations. I trust my Mom.

There seems to be a preponderance of evidence in favor of vaccines. Runnah is absolutely correct, vaccines not only help the individual but also are for the greater good of the collective community. Not getting vaccinated shows a selfish disregard for others.

 

[Gary A.]

You guys are missing the point. It's not about the individual it's about the group.

I'm the only group I really care about.
...

The defense rests.