Formals

elsaspet · Jul 5, 2006

How many of you are still doing these? I hate them to death. I never get orders for them. (Prolly cause I hate them to death and it shows)
I just got so sick of seeing the bride and groom trying to cram everyone they ever met into one humongous group shot that a fisheye couldn't even capture. Everyone's face was the size of a needle pin head, and even when I tried to zoom in at a zillion percent, I couldn't tell if eyes were opened or closed.
That was it for me. I mean, besides the recession, procession, these are the least ordered shots bar none. (for me anyway)
So then, when I had meetings, I started to "pitch" against it, calling it old school and soforth, and really hammering it in how much reception time they are going to miss by calling up group shots of every second cousin twice removed. Yeah, I have no problem with the immediate family and the full wedding party, but it gets to be ridiculous.
I'm happy to say, some of the ladies today, once you explain it to them, don't even want these stupid shots. It's not like they are gonna hang it over their fireplace or anything.
Am I alone in this? How many of you get orders off of these shots. Am I missing the boat because I loathe this part of weddings?

Sharkbait · Jul 5, 2006

We do them, but we very much de-emphasize them. About 5 weeks out from the date I email the bride a couple of different 'worksheets' to help us organize the timeline. They're 'live' pdf documents that get automatically emailed back to us, and they explain that we usually do this certain (short) list of portraits, and we'd be happy to do any others they want, but just be aware that it's going to extend the portrait photography timeline considerably, etc. Some brides ask for tons, some don't ask for any. :shrug: When we're shooting 1800 frames a wedding, a couple dozen more doesn't affect me much one way or another.

Sharkbait · Jul 5, 2006

Also, to add on to my earlier thoughts...

When we started, we pushed hard that we had primarily a photjournalist style, mostly I think because that's just the current trend (no offense to pure pj shooters), but with some of the discussions I've had lately with other photogs and with Kelly about our business direction, we're starting to market more as no particular style, or if anything documentarian...I don't want us to be limited by a 'code' or anything. I've seen some pj shooters who were so narrow minded that they had in their contracts that they would under no circumstances do any posed photography. I'm certainly not knocking the pj style of wedding photography, in fact I love it. I just think that if you limit yourself like that you're going to miss some spectactular photos. Some of the others Kel and I got of that bride were 'lightly' posed, and are some of the best wedding photos we've ever taken. If we were a pure pj style, they never would have happened.

To circle back to your original point though...the uber-traditional 'stand here, hands together left-over-right, smile, -click-. Yeah those suck hard.

Big Mike · Jul 6, 2006

I can't see a big group shot being a big seller. Maybe a nice addition to the album but probably not worth the effort it would take to get everyone into the shot. To be really special, it would have to be a special circumstance. Like if the wedding was in a remote location and these were the family & guests that made the effort to get there. Stuff like that.

As for traditional posed formals...they seem to be the shots that get reproduced the most. A formal shot of the B&G gets sent to a lot of the family. The parents get a shot of them with the couple...or it's the "Bride's side" and "Groom's side" shots that get printed and given to parents & grandparents. The shot of the wedding party all together is often a favorite of the couple and/or bride's maids & groom's men. Individual couple shots of the wedding party are often popular as gifts. Or shots of the bride and each of her maids individually.

I'm mostly going from what I've seen of family weddings...of which there have been many. (My wife has a big Ukrainian family)

I do think that the more creative shots, like the stuff we so often see from you, Cindy, is much better than the standard "stand here" shots. Creative shots like that are treasured by the couple but as for being enlarged, printed and displayed...it seems the family formal is seen much more often. I think this will change over time...things can still be a little 'old school' around here...especially in a Ukrainian farming family.

markc · Jul 6, 2006

While I hated doing them, I think at least a limited set of formals is a good idea: Wedding party, B&G, B&G + B parents, B&G + G parents, repeat with grandparents. Six formals isn't bad as a base. The rest depends on the couple.

I've only done a few weddings myself, but I liked to use a 6x7 for the formals. Three exposures of each of six poses goes on two rolls (might do three rolls worth), then I'm off with my SLR. I made it very clear that my style centered on candids. If they wanted a long list of formals, they were better off going with someone else.

mysteryscribe · Jul 6, 2006

If you don't do them I flat guarantee that within five weddings some one will be calling you unprofessional. Unfortunately the bride and her family expect certain things, even if they don't want to pay for them.

I know I had more brides and groomes concerned about their wedding party shots than anything else. Got to have my picture made with my posse' whatever that it. This after they swore they could care less while we were doing the interview.

Leave aunt hilda from washington out, and you will hear about it guaranteed. It don't matter that you have no idea who aunt hilda is, and that it was never discussed before.

I would have loved to go to a wedding just once and not have something pop up from the mouth of a bride's maid. "Hey Picture man ain't you gonna do a shot of the bride with all our flowers on her train?"

"Why of course I am woman who is NOT paying me. You set it up and I will squeeze it off."

I sure as heck didn't spend much time at it though.

Somebody push me off this soapbox please.

bigfatbadger · Jul 7, 2006

(shoves mysteryscribe, steals soapbox, uses it to stand on whilst doing formal portraits at weddings)

mysteryscribe · Jul 7, 2006

I used to swear i was going to take a three step ladder rather than take my shoes off to stand in a pew for those on stage shots.... Instead i bought the same dollar amount worth of new socks lol...

Christie Photo · Jul 7, 2006

elsaspet said:
How many of you are still doing these? I hate them to death. I never get orders for them.

I'm still doing 'em. Like Mike says, we print these the most.

I'll venture a GUESS why. IN MY AREA (rural/suburbia), most of the area "weekend warriors" have pushed the PJ style. The problem is they're not so good at it. They lack any solid background in posing and lighting, so they profess that PJ is the way to go, and then deliver little more than snapshots.

Recently, a couple of brides told me they feel the trend is returning to the formal sytle. This took me by surprise since I'm in the Midwest and it takes several years for ANY trend to filter here from the coasts.

Anyway, I still shoot formals and they DO end up above the fireplace.

I feel it's my job to do them. THAT'S what I DO. That's what separates me from all the guests with the Rebels.

Pete

mysteryscribe · Jul 7, 2006

....excellent point...

We justified going 35mm by saying we can shoot more than just formals. Back a million years ago, formals was about all you got. When we went with the more versitle 35mm format we could shoot candids out the wazoo but every album included the formals as the basics.

I hear a lot about the photo journalism style and from what I have seen they are inspired snapshots a lot of the time. Nobody I know ever hung a picture of the bride doing the electric slide over the fireplace.

Sharkbait · Jul 7, 2006

The way I see it the problem...well not really problem, but maybe 'drawback' is a better word to a pj style is that you still almost always need a great location and very photogenic bride/groom with time on their own to have worthwhile shots. Otherwise it's as mysteryscribe said...lots of the electric slide.

danalec99 · Jul 7, 2006

elsaspet said:
Yeah, I have no problem with the immediate family and the full wedding party, but it gets to be ridiculous.

I too have no problems with the immediate groups. But the never-ending extended family sessions can become boring.

If you dislike it that much, consider hiring a second shooter who has experience in studio portraiture. Let him/her take care of it. Of course, they will be using your CF cards. I have seen traditional photographers who 'freelance' for several studios at a time.

mysteryscribe · Jul 7, 2006

So thats why my son in law keeps inviting me to weddings...

elsaspet · Jul 7, 2006

There is no reason to do them at all when you have a certain client. I'll take photos of the couple, posed. No problem. The immediate family, no trouble.
But if they want ten zillion formals, they are looking for another wedding photographer.
Sure I can do it. Heck, I can do a lot of things. But do I want to? Does that sell MY art to my target client? No.
Maybe formals work out for some of you. Not for me. The don't hire me to pose. The hire me to catch a moment. If someone could get it in a snapshot, there would be no reason to pay me. If they put out that I was unprofessional, I wouldn't be doing 43 weddings in my first year, with bookings into the next. I'm very professional. Extremely so. I just don't like formals. And thank God, the brides I attract are pretty sick of the same old same old too.
There is someplace for everyone thank God.
I do take offense at a few comments. For instance that I am unprofessional. I don't even know where to begin with that one.
I mean, where do I start? Do we start swapping dollar amounts or what?
I get plenty of reprint biz, and no one ever has called me unprofessional. Ever. Half of my business is done on referral. I've never met a bride yet who fell down and died because she didn't have a shot with Aunt Claura at the Alter. But be sure, if she's wearing a flower, I have ten great shots of her in her NATURAL state. This is what they order.
And the comment about weekend warriors. What's funny is the weekend warriors calls me a weekend warrior. I do this 7 days a week. I do this 60 hours a week, and I know because I bill the time. I sit in this damn chair until I think my head is going to fall off. But I stay here, and I do the work, and I do it with a smile. And beyond that, if anyone I know needs help, I'm right there. No matter how many hours I've worked.
I wish I had a damn weekend. No such luck.
Weekend warrior? Only if they spend the time I do on a project.
And equipment? If anyone here has more equipment than I do, I will eat my hat. I sold my HOME to move into a tiny apartment to pay for the stuff I have. My husband SOLD HIS TRUCK. I have about 40 k in equipment now, and it's because we struggled. We worked our butts off. We took every dollar we ever made and put it back in the business. We sacrificed.
So in short, if I hear one more word from Mysteryscibe about not doing my time, or being a weekend warrior, I am going to go off.
I've bled for this.....have you?

Sharkbait · Jul 8, 2006

elsaspet said:
There is no reason to do them at all when you have a certain client. I'll take photos of the couple, posed. No problem. The immediate family, no trouble.
But if they want ten zillion formals, they are looking for another wedding photographer.
Sure I can do it. Heck, I can do a lot of things. But do I want to? Does that sell MY art to my target client? No.
Maybe formals work out for some of you. Not for me. The don't hire me to pose. The hire me to catch a moment. If someone could get it in a snapshot, there would be no reason to pay me. If they put out that I was unprofessional, I wouldn't be doing 43 weddings in my first year, with bookings into the next. I'm very professional. Extremely so. I just don't like formals. And thank God, the brides I attract are pretty sick of the same old same old too.
There is someplace for everyone thank God.
I do take offense at a few comments. For instance that I am unprofessional. I don't even know where to begin with that one.
I mean, where do I start? Do we start swapping dollar amounts or what?
I get plenty of reprint biz, and no one ever has called me unprofessional. Ever. Half of my business is done on referral. I've never met a bride yet who fell down and died because she didn't have a shot with Aunt Claura at the Alter. But be sure, if she's wearing a flower, I have ten great shots of her in her NATURAL state. This is what they order.
And the comment about weekend warriors. What's funny is the weekend warriors calls me a weekend warrior. I do this 7 days a week. I do this 60 hours a week, and I know because I bill the time. I sit in this damn chair until I think my head is going to fall off. But I stay here, and I do the work, and I do it with a smile. And beyond that, if anyone I know needs help, I'm right there. No matter how many hours I've worked.
I wish I had a damn weekend. No such luck.
Weekend warrior? Only if they spend the time I do on a project.
And equipment? If anyone here has more equipment than I do, I will eat my hat. I sold my HOME to move into a tiny apartment to pay for the stuff I have. My husband SOLD HIS TRUCK. I have about 40 k in equipment now, and it's because we struggled. We worked our butts off. We took every dollar we ever made and put it back in the business. We sacrificed.
So in short, if I hear one more word from Mysteryscibe about not doing my time, or being a weekend warrior, I am going to go off.
I've bled for this.....have you?

I've gone back through this thread a couple of times now, and all I can think is that I missed some stuff in other threads, because I didn't get a lot of what you did out of this thread. Was any of this directed back at any of my comments?