Help......!!!

[Battou]

Oi....I am trying to help a kid who can't quite get a grasp on the fact he is a rookie when it comes down to photography. He posted a photo riddled with rookie mistakes....(Nightshot AF'd in hand at 40mm on a crop body ) and when I offered my advice his respoce was....well, standard issue.

The "Light Escape" one...you got bitten by a very common rookie mistake, the image is OoF, this is because in low light situations like that one AF does not work, it doesn't matter what camera you use, do not AF in the dark, it'll fail every time. Use the manual focus option on your camera for those.

*edited post*

I think it was actually the slow shutter speed I had to use. I use flash to assist AF then lower the bulb in low light situations like that, my vision isn't very good so I can't MF much. It was 1/15 second at 40mm, I have decently steady hands but that's hard to manage.

I'm no rookie.

I think it was actually the slow shutter speed I had to use. I use flash to assist AF then lower the bulb in low light situations like that, my vision isn't very good so I can't MF much. I'm no rookie.

That is simply too far away for the AF assist lamp to have had any effect, It's the AF. It has nothing to do with the shutter speed you used, If a slow shutter speed where responcable this, this and this would all be blurry.

So you're saying 1/15s at zoomed focal lengths hand held should be clear, sharp pictures? Also let me mention I was ****ing freezing and my fingers actually felt like they were about to fall off. I don't think they should have been sharp at all, focused or not.

And maybe I like them unfocused, it looks like an older picture, I don't mind, I could have sharpened it in PS but I didn't. I dunno, sometimes they way you give advice pisses me off. I still appreciate it and whatnot, continue.

So you're saying 1/15s at zoomed focal lengths hand held should be clear, sharp pictures? Also let me mention I was ****ing freezing and my fingers actually felt like they were about to fall off. I don't think they should have been sharp at all, focused or not.

... I could have sharpened it in PS but I didn't. I dunno, sometimes they way you give advice pisses me off. I still appreciate it and whatnot, continue.

...No 1/15 handheld should not be clear at all, Your edit with the shutter speed and lens information was not there when I began making my previous post. I'm sorry if I piss you off at times, you would not even want to see some of the critiques I get...they are brutal, I am trying not to be as brutal as the person who critiques mine but, I guess he is rubbing off on me. Which could be for the better as I have learned a lot from him and I am much better now for it.

I assume it's the kit lens (14-45 f/5.6) on a crop factor of about 2. This would mean you where shooting around 80mm as it would translate to my full frame cameras so you would need a shutter speed of 1/80 minimum to shoot handheld. This is basic photography, it is one of the first things they teach you in classes. Additionally, you are overestimating the power of Photoshop, also very common. A lot of people don't realize that USM can not bring an OoF image into focus, it never could.

And maybe I like them unfocused

Now, as far as artistic photography goes, I am a firm believer in "your vision, your gear, your rules" So I have to ask. Is that what you had in mind when you set up to take the shot, or are you merely settling with it? Is that the vision you had at the instant you took the photo?

How do I finish this conversation with out comming off like a complete ass hole?

 

[Overread]

any chance we can get a look at the thread - and possibly the photo in question?
pm the link if you don't want it shown out here if you want


Personally its going to be tricky and I really would like to see the specific photo in question.

 

[Battou]

N-Philes :: Forums - My Photo Thread

"Light Escape" at the very top. The kid has a camera capable of taking the photos he wants it to he just has not learned to tell it what to do, and since I am the only one on that forum that has even half an idea how an SLR works I really feel the need to try and help.

 

[Overread]

ARR! he does that post new photos in the first post thing - gah I was about to tell you to have your eyes tested thinking that the 1st photo was sharp
Firstly tell him to post new photo in a new post not at the start - it makes the thread impossible to follow and thus people will ignor it.

As for the comments I suggest dropping any hint in your speach that he is a rookie or beginner - don't even joke about it. I think this is what is setting him off - the idea that you (and just who are you Mr random on the internet) are better than him and are speaking down to him. This is not intentional on your part in any way, but I think that is how he is viewing it and that is setting him against your advice since he views it not as helpful but as being snarky.

On a photo forum chances are he would be hit from all sides and either have to change his ways or leave (probably founcing out of the site in a big huff) where the odds are more aginst you you either adapt to speaking his lingo or leave him be - and since your more in the former group you have to adapt yourself

 

[Battou]

ARR! he does that post new photos in the first post thing - gah I was about to tell you to have your eyes tested thinking that the 1st photo was sharp
Firstly tell him to post new photo in a new post not at the start - it makes the thread impossible to follow and thus people will ignor it.

As for the comments I suggest dropping any hint in your speach that he is a rookie or beginner - don't even joke about it. I think this is what is setting him off - the idea that you (and just who are you Mr random on the internet) are better than him and are speaking down to him. This is not intentional on your part in any way, but I think that is how he is viewing it and that is setting him against your advice since he views it not as helpful but as being snarky.

On a photo forum chances are he would be hit from all sides and either have to change his ways or leave (probably founcing out of the site in a big huff) where the odds are more aginst you you either adapt to speaking his lingo or leave him be - and since your more in the former group you have to adapt yourself

Well, He is well aware of what I have done. Something you may not have noticed is he copied the thread title word for word form another thread in the same section changing only one letter by capitalizing it (N-Philes :: Forums - My Photo thread) so he knows I am a little more than Mr. Random but, I can work on dropping the inexperience comments. It won't be easy for me considering I feel my ten years ain't a whole lot of experience, let alone his few months, but I'll try.

In another one of his threads I tried telling him to come over here for advice from people with more experience than I have, but he declined.

 

[Overread]

I suspect its a confidence factor - he is not confident enough in his own work as yet - basically he is not getting pro results and so feels that he is not good enough. Thus he is sticking to sites that he knows and tries for easy compliments to bolster himself whilst he tries to improve.
Chances are this is not even a consious choice by him, but rather thoughts like " I will wait till I am good enough " are going through his mind when you made the suggestion.

It could also be totally different - he might just not want to be on another photo site with you and instead wants to find his own turf on the net.

Its hard to work it out when one knows so little of a person to make judgements about them and i could be totally wrong on all counts. Just keep at it and in time he might change.

 

[Joves]

What gets me is how the hell did he wash out the canyon so badly? I have never seen a flatter photo of it. Well I take that back one of my old film prits got wet and, it looked like that. What it sounds like is he is at the age where he knows everything so, no matter what you say it wont sink in.

 

[Jedo_03]

What gets me is how the hell did he wash out the canyon so badly? I have never seen a flatter photo of it. Well I take that back one of my old film prits got wet and, it looked like that. What it sounds like is he is at the age where he knows everything so, no matter what you say it wont sink in.

I'm not disagreeing that the pic of the canyon looks flat/washed out... BUT... Dan Margulis (The Canyon Conundrum) explains that the colour spaces of digital capturing doesn't allow for colour separation (too narrow) and that Canyons (in particular) need a good tweak in L*a*b to enhance this...
I've read his whole book (like 15 times) and "proved" it to myself that he is indeed correct... Take any pic of a canyon into L*a*b and tweak the *a and *b channels...
See for yourself...
Jedo

 

[Jedo_03]

This guy wants his forum to "dig" his photographs...
He doesn't seem to much care for comment or advice...
He is already quite convinced that he is God's Gift to Photography - and all he wants YOU to do is "dig" his work...
"Dig this, Man... Do I Rock - or what...?"

Confucious say: He who knows not - and knows not that he knows not, is a fool... Shun him...
Jedo

 

[JerryPH]

If he doesn't want your help, you cannot force it down his throat. Don't even bother with it, just drop it.

 

[ann]

what your trying to do isn't easy. Something that doesn't help is the written word.

I teach photography and have been doing so for many years,(since 1960's) and i get at least one or two every year that already know everything and would like to teach the class (and this is in a face to face environment). Sometimes it is a teenager but usually an adult with a lot of high end equipment, book knowledge and so so photos.
I stopped long ago hitting them on the head with my resume, and try to find a common thread to build a postive relationship (not always easy).

I admire your courage to try to help someone on line. I have no problem with sitting down face to face with someone and talking with them about their vision, decision making process, etc. especially when the results are not very good, but with email it gets very touchy.

One suggestion i would make, start with a positive comment, end with a positive statement. the middle. suggestions for making the image stronger, etc.

good luck

 

[Battou]

This guy wants his forum to "dig" his photographs...
He doesn't seem to much care for comment or advice...
He is already quite convinced that he is God's Gift to Photography - and all he wants YOU to do is "dig" his work...
"Dig this, Man... Do I Rock - or what...?"

Confucious say: He who knows not - and knows not that he knows not, is a fool... Shun him...
Jedo

Well, I have to give ya that but, he does speciffically ask for people to tell him what ones "we don't dig" as well. Since I really Dig lowlight photography...I really did not dig that one.

If he doesn't want your help, you cannot force it down his throat. Don't even bother with it, just drop it.

I do understand what you are saying but you missed this part

...

I dunno, sometimes they way you give advice pisses me off. I still appreciate it and whatnot, continue.

Additionally there are a few PM's on that forum you could not have known about where he was asking advice from me. I hinted at them with the silhouette but did not come out and say it, never the less he does by some outward appearence want the advice in some capasity. Despite that I nearly walked away from it all together for the reason that new photos in the first post thing that Overread outlined.

what your trying to do isn't easy. Something that doesn't help is the written word.

I teach photography and have been doing so for many years,(since 1960's) and i get at least one or two every year that already know everything and would like to teach the class (and this is in a face to face environment). Sometimes it is a teenager but usually an adult with a lot of high end equipment, book knowledge and so so photos.
I stopped long ago hitting them on the head with my resume, and try to find a common thread to build a postive relationship (not always easy).

I admire your courage to try to help someone on line. I have no problem with sitting down face to face with someone and talking with them about their vision, decision making process, etc. especially when the results are not very good, but with email it gets very touchy.

One suggestion i would make, start with a positive comment, end with a positive statement. the middle. suggestions for making the image stronger, etc.

good luck

...Why can't this be as easy as teaching horseback riding?...I mean I used to see a lot of the same thing, " I know what I am doing, I have a dozen horses including a amish plow horse, I can do this, leave me alone"...Thud.

Now, I can't say that I am particularly good at teaching anything. I have a real screwed up demeiner. I want to help, I just can't sit there and watch some one make the same mistakes I did but I tend to be...too aggressive at times. Additionally I do unfortunately have some issues with getting face to face and talking things like this out with people, I just have difficulty talking to people. With horses it was easy "If you know what you're doin, Why's it hurt so damn bad?" "..." "it's because you know everything and understand nothing, gettup and get back on" I can't do that with photography, the photograph ain't going to bounce you off the gate adding injury to insult. The best I can think of in this instance the sharing of experience for the very reason you mentioned that the written word is of little to no use so I try to use images to illustrate the point....but that is backfiring as it is obviously being deemed by him as smacking him with a resume as you well put it.

As far as the situation on the other forum goes I managed wriggle out of it about an hour ago. It ain't over but, it seems to have smoothed out for now through double arrogents .


Getting back to face to face instruction.....

I mentioned I have some difficulty there. My GF asked me to teach her and I can sit and get face to face with her. Going back to the horses someone sais "I want to ride a horse, can you teach me?" OK, fine, but some one sais "I want to take pictures, can you teach me?" it's a little different "What kind of pictures do you want to take?", "Oh I dunno stuff I find cool." Well, what's cool?" "..." <-- problem, How do I coax that up.

I have seen her get inspired on a couple of occations, once was Wildlife (deer in particular) another was a humorous still life, but that does not exactly answer the question.

 

[Joves]

I'm not disagreeing that the pic of the canyon looks flat/washed out... BUT... Dan Margulis (The Canyon Conundrum) explains that the colour spaces of digital capturing doesn't allow for colour separation (too narrow) and that Canyons (in particular) need a good tweak in L*a*b to enhance this...
I've read his whole book (like 15 times) and "proved" it to myself that he is indeed correct... Take any pic of a canyon into L*a*b and tweak the *a and *b channels...
See for yourself...
Jedo

It is flat.

 

[ann]

battou

it is very difficult to teach a loved one anything

also teenage brains are not fully developed so it just isn't you. He would be acting this way with anyone who tried to help him.

sounds like you have made a good decision to move away from the situation.

people pay me good money and some don't pay any
attention.
human's are strange, horses are pretty straight forward.

i say this often "you can lead a horse to water, you just can't make it swim on it's back"

 

[tron]

battou, i have a quick question now that you brought it up. if the camera is in face capable of autofocusing at night (it manages to find something to lock onto) why not use it?