I think I have hard water and it messed up some of my negatives

[georgeisabamf]

So today, being Christmas, I was gifted with all the chemicals (developer, blix, and stabilizer) needed to produce basic negatives. I've been meaning to get into this for a while and it's really exciting being able to finally do so (hate spending 20+ dollars per roll to get my film developed). Well tonight I ran my first set of film through my new Paterson tank. I was skeptical that it would actually work out seeing as how it was my first time trying. Well after removing the film, sure enough, there are obvious negatives to be seen.

I have had the film hanging up to dry for the past 2-3 hours or so and just checked on it now. Everything looks fine except I can see about 5-10 water drop sized white spots. Luckily most of them are on the part of the film towards the beginning so for the most part the negatives are fine. However, I was wondering if this would have to do with the fact that I have hard tap water? It looks as if the spots are a buildup of some mineral(s) or something.

I remember seeing a video a few months ago on Youtube where this guy said he has really hard water so he adds a certain chemical at the end of the development that counteracts bad effects from hard water. Does anyone know what the name of this chemical is? Or possibly any other solution to get rid of these spots without damaging the negatives? I have plenty of rolls to run, and don't want any of them to get ruined because of such a problem.

If anyone has any info/tips for me (seeing as how I am brand new to this), I'd greatly appreciate it! This is all a learning process for myself and it's also very rewarding once I saw the negatives actually formed.

Also, is it just me or is it a serious pain in the butt to load 120 film onto a Paterson reel? I almost gave up after trying for 25 minutes but finally got it to stay on the reel. Then again, I have never had any practice before today.

 

[tirediron]

Sounds like the normal water-spots produced from washing film without a wetting agent. You need to add a drop or two (although if you want some serious fun, toss the whole bottle into the town fountain) of Photoflo. This provides a 'slippery' surface so that the water slides off and doesn't dry in place causing spots.

Yes, it's a huge pain in the sitmedownupon trying to load 120 onto a Patterson reel!

 

[wyogirl]

^^^ was going to say the same thing... Photoflo is great.

 

[limr]

Water spots are a common issue with developing film at home. Hard water does leave spots, but so does softened water. There are a few ways to help eliminate or at least minimize the spots:

1) Use distilled water, at least for rinsing after the fixer.

2) The chemical that you heard of is probably PhotoFlo, which is a rinse agent that prevents the water from adhering so it can't form drops. Think of the JetDry that you use in a dishwasher. In fact, I've had some success using actual JetDry on my negatives. You only have to use the tiniest of drops (otherwise it can get sudsy). For the record, I've got nothing against PhotoFlo - it's easily available on Amazon and one small bottle will last you forever, and it is supposedly very good. I just have to think about disposal because I'm on a septic tank so I have to be careful about what goes down the drain. I develop with a homemade developer and collect used fixer to dispose of at a municipal facility.

3) Whatever spots that are on the NON-emulsion side of the film can be cleaned. Just breathe on the film (when it's totally dry, of course) and gently wipe the film with a dust-free cloth. Be careful not to move the film around because you could still scratch the emulsion side if it's face down and moving around. I always make sure the film is on something like a piece of glass or the archival sleeves for negatives.

Yes, loading 120 can be a hassle. I've had success making it easier by making two very small diagonal cuts at the corners of the leading edge of the film, so they are no longer at a 90 degree angle. Don't make the cuts big. This works for 35mm film as well, even though 35mm is generally easier to load.

 

[georgeisabamf]

Thanks for the quick replies and useful information everyone! Photoflo is definitely what I was thinking of. I am going to place an order for some tomorrow so that I can perhaps avoid this problem in the future.

I have a "noob" question though, exactly what side is the emulsion side? Sorry if that's a dumb question but I want to get rid of the spots before I scan them if I can.

I will need to try that tip about cutting the edges of the film before loading. I also found a reel that apparently is really easy to load even with 120 film. It's by a company called Samigon and it looks different from standard reels like myself:

Samigon Multi-Format Autofeed Reel ESA325 B&H Photo Video

Wondering if that would make my life easier. I also need to get a safelight as I think that would help me out a lot.

 

[tirediron]

The dull side is the emulsion side. It's normally the concave side of the film.

Safe lights are useful, but ONLY for printing, NOT for loading film.

 

[georgeisabamf]

The dull side is the emulsion side. It's normally the concave side of the film.

Safe lights are useful, but ONLY for printing, NOT for loading film.

Wow, I never knew that. I figured they'd work with loading the film as well. So I guess I am SOL when it comes to having light to assist me while loading my tank. I'm sure some practice will help me with that though. I have an old roll of film that got messed up a few months back that I am going to practice loading in the light and will try different methods to see what works best.

But it seems most of the spots aren't on the emulsion side. Tomorrow I'll try scanning the film before I try removing the spots just to play it safe.

 

[georgeisabamf]

One quick question I'd like to also ask, for future reference, is it bad to touch the film while loading it into a Paterson tank? I washed my hands thoroughly before loading the film onto the reel, but I did touch certain bits of the film that I don't think i should have. I don't see any thumbprints or marks from my fingers in the negatives (I haven't scanned them yet), but I am wondering if this is something I should avoid doing?

 

[Josh66]

Everything looks fine except I can see about 5-10 water drop sized white spots.

It's from the stabilizer.

I get them even with distilled water. I've had issues adding photo-flo to the stabilizer before too - it doesn't help as well as it does for B&W film for some reason. And all of the kits I've used say that stabilzer should be the final step... I've added photo-flo to the stabilizer before, and I don't know what it was, but it made a bunch of crap floating around in it. Like the hexamine in the stabilizer was attaching itself to the photo-flo or something. Not sure, but I never did it again since then, lol. It probably wouldn't be an issue if you were going to use it as one-shot - but if you were going to do that, C-41 kits would be 3 or 4 times more expensive than sending the film to a lab... You'd get like 2 or 3 rolls out of a kit, instead of 16-20 (1L kit).

Washing comes BEFORE stabilizer in C-41, so a wetting agent won't do anything. The only step after stabilizer is drying the film.


What I do is, squeegee the film when I hang it up. I know everyone says to never use a squeegee, but it's really the best option I've found. Keep everything clean and you won't scratch the film - I've squeegeed a ton of rolls, and haven't scratched one. Use your fingers, or just make SURE the squeegee is clean so you don't scratch your film. I never squeegee B&W film (I use distilled water and photo-flo for that, and it works great), but it's the only thing I've found to reliably prevent water spots on color. (I think everyone thought you were talking about developing B&W film...)


Touching the film while loading is pretty hard to avoid... I've never once seen it cause any kind of problem... Fingerprints or anything like that will wash off in the developer. Obviously, make sure your hands are clean and dry. Wear white cotton gloves if you're especially paranoid.

Avoid touching it while it's drying though.

For the record, I've got nothing against PhotoFlo - it's easily available on Amazon and one small bottle will last you forever, and it is supposedly very good.

The bottle I'm using now still has about 1/3 in it - I bought it about 2 years ago for $10, lol. I forget how big the bottle is (16oz or something) - but you use 5mL of it per liter of water.

Yes, it's a huge pain in the sitmedownupon trying to load 120 onto a Patterson reel!

I think it was compur that mentioned a tip I remember that helped - cut down a business card to the width of the film, then put that halfway into the reel and use it as a guide for the film. Obviously, you'll want to pull it out before you get the film too far in.

It works great for really curly film that just doesn't want to go into the reel.

 

[gsgary]

Loading 120 is very easy when you get the hang of it, its hard to explain but i hold the film in my right hand with the start of the film facing up i rip the paper backing so about 2 inch of film is sticking out with my left hand holding the real i pull the film into the reel with my finger and thumb the reel must be bone dry then its just a case of winding it on and into the tank

 

[georgeisabamf]

Everything looks fine except I can see about 5-10 water drop sized white spots.

It's from the stabilizer.

I get them even with distilled water. I've had issues adding photo-flo to the stabilizer before too - it doesn't help as well as it does for B&W film for some reason. And all of the kits I've used say that stabilzer should be the final step... I've added photo-flo to the stabilizer before, and I don't know what it was, but it made a bunch of crap floating around in it. Like the hexamine in the stabilizer was attaching itself to the photo-flo or something. Not sure, but I never did it again since then, lol. It probably wouldn't be an issue if you were going to use it as one-shot - but if you were going to do that, C-41 kits would be 3 or 4 times more expensive than sending the film to a lab... You'd get like 2 or 3 rolls out of a kit, instead of 16-20 (1L kit).

Washing comes BEFORE stabilizer in C-41, so a wetting agent won't do anything. The only step after stabilizer is drying the film.


What I do is, squeegee the film when I hang it up. I know everyone says to never use a squeegee, but it's really the best option I've found. Keep everything clean and you won't scratch the film - I've squeegeed a ton of rolls, and haven't scratched one. Use your fingers, or just make SURE the squeegee is clean so you don't scratch your film. I never squeegee B&W film (I use distilled water and photo-flo for that, and it works great), but it's the only thing I've found to reliably prevent water spots on color. (I think everyone thought you were talking about developing B&W film...)


Touching the film while loading is pretty hard to avoid... I've never once seen it cause any kind of problem... Fingerprints or anything like that will wash off in the developer. Obviously, make sure your hands are clean and dry. Wear white cotton gloves if you're especially paranoid.

Avoid touching it while it's drying though.

For the record, I've got nothing against PhotoFlo - it's easily available on Amazon and one small bottle will last you forever, and it is supposedly very good.

The bottle I'm using now still has about 1/3 in it - I bought it about 2 years ago for $10, lol. I forget how big the bottle is (16oz or something) - but you use 5mL of it per liter of water.

Yes, it's a huge pain in the sitmedownupon trying to load 120 onto a Patterson reel!

I think it was compur that mentioned a tip I remember that helped - cut down a business card to the width of the film, then put that halfway into the reel and use it as a guide for the film. Obviously, you'll want to pull it out before you get the film too far in.

It works great for really curly film that just doesn't want to go into the reel.

Yes, I was talking about developing color film. After using the stabilizer, I did try to squeegee the water with my fingers a little bit. I just gently ran two fingers (one down each side of film) to try and push excess water off, but the spots still remain. I'll have to make sure I do this more next time or something.

My problem is now, I don't have a film scanner. So I'm looking up all these methods of scanning negatives using a DSLR and a light source (many variations of this type of method), and can't find a single one that actually works well. I need to invest in a film scanner, but don't want to spend a lot of money on one. Does anyone know of a fairly good film scanner that costs under 150 bucks? I don't mind buying used as well.

I have software that is used to invert the negatives and remove the amber/red color cast of the film, and it works rather well, but I can't get quality scans with any of the methods I have tried yet.

On a side note, I also have some chemicals I ordered for black and white processing, but I through that kit together randomly (not all of the chemicals are made by one company), unlike the kit I am using for color which all came together in one package. So I'm hoping that all works out well too.

Also, something I noticed. In the instructions my kit came with it says I can run 4 rolls of film with the developer that is included. However, it only included 1000ml worth of developer, and my tank holds 500ml. You can't reuse developer, can you? If not I need to figure out where I can buy large quantities of it so that I don't have to keep buying more after every 2 rolls. I did keep the developer I used yesterday for potential future use, but not sure if I should bother with it.

 

[Josh66]

You should be able to find an Epson V600 used for under $150. Or save $50 more and get a new one:
Amazon.com: Epson B11B198011 Perfection V600 Photo Scanner: Electronics

Anything better than that is going to be considerably more expensive.

 

[Josh66]

Reuse everything for C-41. When the directions say how many rolls it will process, they are taking reuse into account. It will actually develop more rolls than they say, but quality will gradually start to decrease as you go over the rated capacity. (Edit - you will start to notice a color shift.)

For B&W, it depends on the developer. Some you reuse, some you don't. Most, you dilute before use. You mix up your liter or whatever, then dilute that more (making however much you need to cover the film) right before use. Like, with Xtol - you make a 5L batch. That can be used as-is, or further diluted to 1+1, 1+2, or 1+3 (1+3 is not the same as 1:3. 1+3 = 4 total parts, 1:3 = 3 total parts.)

edit
For B&W, you will also want to reuse fixer and stop bath. They both last a very long time. Last week I mixed a new batch of fixer - the batch it replaced was mixed over a year ago and fixed almost 70 rolls. Stop bath lasts even longer...

 

[timor]

One quick question I'd like to also ask, for future reference, is it bad to touch the film while loading it into a Paterson tank? I washed my hands thoroughly before loading the film onto the reel, but I did touch certain bits of the film that I don't think i should have. I don't see any thumbprints or marks from my fingers in the negatives (I haven't scanned them yet), but I am wondering if this is something I should avoid doing?

If your hands have tendency to sweat when you are under the pressure better avoid touching emulsion and never ever touch emulsion, when is wet. As for wetting agent Photo-Flow never worked for me, but one drop of dish washing detergent like Palmolive works just fine. I guess it's my tap water fault. If nothing helps try what Elenore said, distilled water.

 

[limr]

I haven't tried the Palmolive trick yet, but I've heard that it works pretty well. The only thing I ever heard about it was to be careful of how the dyes might affect the film. I bought a small bottle of clear Dawn to test it out and I'll try it with my next roll.

For a scanner, I use the Canon CanoScan 8800, which goes for something between $150-170. There is a newer model, the 9000, and it's supposed to be better than the 8800 at certain things which I of course can't remember right now. At any rate, I'm quite happy with my CanoScan.