If Client did not like your photo and decides not to pay you, is that right?

tirediron · Nov 22, 2011

You should find yourself a new mentor. This one clearly is NOT teaching you what you need to know in terms of work-flow, business, etc. As second-shooter/apprentice/mentee, you should not have to, or be expected to deal with client complaints. Do what you need to do to get this sorted (but I would NOT volunteer to give up a cent of my pay cheque) and find a new place to work.

mwcfarms · Nov 22, 2011

As I second shooter I do not do any of the edits ever. I hand my shots all over to the primary and away I go with my money in hand. Much nicer because the day isn't a tonne of work but editting and culling sure is. Your primary is an idiot in my opinion. Not only is he walking all over you by this but he is allowing you to form contacts/relationships with his clients. This allows you to the opportunity to build a better relationship and get the referrals that he could have. Not saying you would but its happened lol. Also allowing you to edit the files is going to cause his edits to most likely look different. Its nice to have some continuity to the flow of images from that day. I agree with Cericola, don't be a doormat. Good luck!

Big Mike · Nov 22, 2011

I agree with what everyone else is saying. Cut your losses and walk away. This is not a good situation for you to be working for this 'photographer'.

Destin · Nov 22, 2011

mwcfarms said:
As I second shooter I do not do any of the edits ever. I hand my shots all over to the primary and away I go with my money in hand. Much nicer because the day isn't a tonne of work but editting and culling sure is. Your primary is an idiot in my opinion. Not only is he walking all over you by this but he is allowing you to form contacts/relationships with his clients. This allows you to the opportunity to build a better relationship and get the referrals that he could have. Not saying you would but its happened lol. Also allowing you to edit the files is going to cause his edits to most likely look different. Its nice to have some continuity to the flow of images from that day. I agree with Cericola, don't be a doormat. Good luck!

From what I read of the OP's post it doesn't sound like he was a second shooter. It sounds like he was the primary photographer, who doesn't have his own business, and works for a "photography pimp" if you will. Almost like the guy running the business isn't even a photographer, just a business man. He does the advertising, and the couples go through him to hire the company to shoot their wedding, and then the company send out one of it's VASTLY UNDERPAID ($100-150 for a WEDDING? ARE YOU EFFIN $HI77EN ME??) to shoot the wedding.

.. At least that's the impression that I got...

mwcfarms · Nov 22, 2011

I hope that's not the case because then its both of their faults.

CCericola · Nov 22, 2011

If you are a graphic designer you should think twice before working on spec. The approach you are pursuing is one that compromises the quality of work clients are entitled to and also violates a tacit, long-standing ethical standard in the communication design profession worldwide. Speculative work for ad agencies are the only time that this is praticed because contracts are substantial and continuous without the ad agency delivering any final products at the time of the bid. In the case of ad agencies do you think they don't pay their staff if they don't get the contract?

The professional photographer needs to pay his staff for their time. The final product is his responsibility and his alone. Yes the OP should have made copies of all the files but it was the professional photographer's responsibility to make sure the people he hired had the skills needed to do the job. If he knew going in he was hiring someone with little experience then he should have made sure each step was monitored or explained. Now if the OP lied to the Photographer about their skills then feel free to tell me to go fly a kite.

CCericola · Nov 22, 2011

Destin said:
mwcfarms said:

As I second shooter I do not do any of the edits ever. I hand my shots all over to the primary and away I go with my money in hand. Much nicer because the day isn't a tonne of work but editting and culling sure is. Your primary is an idiot in my opinion. Not only is he walking all over you by this but he is allowing you to form contacts/relationships with his clients. This allows you to the opportunity to build a better relationship and get the referrals that he could have. Not saying you would but its happened lol. Also allowing you to edit the files is going to cause his edits to most likely look different. Its nice to have some continuity to the flow of images from that day. I agree with Cericola, don't be a doormat. Good luck!

Click to expand...

From what I read of the OP's post it doesn't sound like he was a second shooter. It sounds like he was the primary photographer, who doesn't have his own business, and works for a "photography pimp" if you will. Almost like the guy running the business isn't even a photographer, just a business man. He does the advertising, and the couples go through him to hire the company to shoot their wedding, and then the company send out one of it's VASTLY UNDERPAID ($100-150 for a WEDDING? ARE YOU EFFIN $HI77EN ME??) to shoot the wedding.

.. At least that's the impression that I got...

I don't think that's what's going on ( I hope not) but the first sentence does say "I work as an assistant wedding photographer"

c.cloudwalker · Nov 22, 2011

The only thing I get out of this thread is that most people have their heads stuck up their *ss so far they have no idea what's going on.

I asked a very simple question and it was not answered by the OP. It was also ignored by all further responders (if that is a word) except maybe the graphic designer.

The fact that the OP is doing PP work means, to me, that there is no contract between him/her and the main photog, because it means the main photog has no idea what he is doing. If you were the main, would you let the second do PP?

In that case, the OP has nothing to worry about. The problem belongs to the main photog.

End of thread.

But if the OP does have a contract with the main, then we need to know what it says before speculating all over the darn place. Don't we?

mwcfarms · Nov 22, 2011

Regardless of speculation or how far I have my head up my @ss do you think the OP should really think about working for a guy like this. How is educating the OP on what might be the NORM for other second shooters a bad thing. If I read his original post correctly I still think that your assuming their is a contract is just the same as our speculations. If the main is letting him do PP and talk to the clients do you honestly think he would have an actual contract in place? Or even a decent one.

c.cloudwalker · Nov 22, 2011

No. I actually think there is no contract. Because the Main would have to be the weirdest photog to let the second do any PP, it tells me there is no contract. This main has no idea what he/she is doing.

So, the OP owes the main NOTHING.

Not only that but why is the bride talking to the Second?

unpopular · Nov 22, 2011

CCericola said:
If you are a graphic designer you should think twice before working on spec. The approach you are pursuing is one that compromises the quality of work clients are entitled to and also violates a tacit, long-standing ethical standard in the communication design profession worldwide. Speculative work for ad agencies are the only time that this is praticed because contracts are substantial and continuous without the ad agency delivering any final products at the time of the bid. In the case of ad agencies do you think they don't pay their staff if they don't get the contract?

I don't "do" professional ethics. The only ethic I have is to provide products that my client demands, there is a market for spec work, and I provide that. So-called "professional ethics" are baloney and nine out of ten times the only purpose for them is to screw the client and prevent competition. It's essentially service equivalent to price fixing.

I am not sure how spec work provides any lower quality to the client. If anything contract work does as the client already has an obligation to pay regardless of quality. They have to pay you regardless if you produce quality work. By working on spec, I have to convince the client that the product I am offering is worth their money. Whether or not this harms my competition really isn't my problem.

Kerbouchard · Nov 22, 2011

c.cloudwalker said:
No. I actually think there is no contract. Because the Main would have to be the weirdest photog to let the second do any PP, it tells me there is no contract. This main has no idea what he/she is doing.

So, the OP owes the main NOTHING.

Not only that but why is the bride talking to the Second?

Reading comprehension = fail

For one thing, the OP is not being asked for money. The OP is in a position where his paycheck is being withheld.

I agree mwcfarms. I thought it was very useful for people to explain to the OP how these types of things normally work, which is what I did. I also mentioned a contract in my explanation. Me thinks you should have another cup of coffee before getting back to this thread...seems like you're a bit grumpier than normal today.

gsgary · Nov 22, 2011

Delete all the photos and walk away

nedomik · Nov 22, 2011

Hello everyone!

I am just new in this forum and I do not know the lingo here such as PP, OP, etc.

Anyway, the main photog and me did not have any contract. He hired me over the phone saying he'll pay me $150 per wedding. When I started doing weddings, he said he did not say he's going to pay me $150/wedding but instead $11/hr.

He told me to edit my own photos and give it to him.

I never talk to his clients. I never get to speak with the bride.

It's been over the month since the wedding and was still not paid for it. So I texted the main photog to send me my paycheck. He said he already paid me but I said he still hasn't. Then he texted me that the wedding is not happy with some of her photos being lighter than usual and wants it fixed.

My main photog is a man and I am a woman. My photog boss can't edit the screwed up photos because the bride is lebanese and no man can see her hair except for her husband and family. There. I hope that answers your questions.

MTVision · Nov 22, 2011

nedomik said:
Hello everyone!

I am just new in this forum and I do not know the lingo here such as PP, OP, etc.

Anyway, the main photog and me did not have any contract. He hired me over the phone saying he'll pay me $150 per wedding. When I started doing weddings, he said he did not say he's going to pay me $150/wedding but instead $11/hr.

He told me to edit my own photos and give it to him.

I never talk to his clients. I never get to speak with the bride.

It's been over the month since the wedding and was still not paid for it. So I texted the main photog to send me my paycheck. He said he already paid me but I said he still hasn't. Then he texted me that the wedding is not happy with some of her photos being lighter than usual and wants it fixed.

My main photog is a man and I am a woman. My photog boss can't edit the screwed up photos because the bride is lebanese and no man can see her hair except for her husband and family. There. I hope that answers your questions.