Is it just me ?

[skieur]

Now I know alot of coments are made with no intent of angering anyone, but absent tone and inflection, straight forward honest statements that were made per request. This is also a geographic downfall, each culture uses its own version of any given language. What I say in my hometown without offending anyone could very well deeply offend someone from another town, state, or country.
Alot of it could be alieviated by newcomers not taking everything that is said to heart. To them I say...you post a picture to a public forum and ask for opinions you are going to get opinions. You have to be adult enough to take the jits just as well as the praise. People who disaprove of your work will usually tell you why...a very good way to pick up ideas. Instead of veiwing this as an insult, look at it as a learning tool. You gain demographic data as well for your style.

I tend to agree. Newcomers need to realize that experienced photographers have seen exponentially more photographs and are more aware of the criteria that are used to judge their quality. Very basic is that what you see with your eyes does NOT necessarily make a good photograph whether you appreciate that fact or not. If you are posting in a forum, the assumption is that you are past your own personal opinion, and looking for a more objective consensus of the quality of your work as well as for suggestions for improvement. If you get that objective consensus and feel insulted then you need to reassess your photos. If you are giving false praise under the guise of encouragement, then you need to reassess your critique and its possible negative consequences.

skieur

 

[clarinetJWD]

I tend to agree. Newcomers need to realize that experienced photographers have seen exponentially more photographs and are more aware of the criteria that are used to judge their quality. Very basic is that what you see with your eyes does NOT necessarily make a good photograph whether you appreciate that fact or not. If you are posting in a forum, the assumption is that you are past your own personal opinion, and looking for a more objective consensus of the quality of your work as well as for suggestions for improvement. If you get that objective consensus and feel insulted then you need to reassess your photos. If you are giving false praise under the guise of encouragement, then you need to reassess your critique and its possible negative consequences.

skieur

Absolutely, it's one thing to be offended by honest and constructive opinions, and that's a bit of a problem. It's a whole different thing when the opinions are presented in an almost vicious manner. True, it's hard to convey tone online, but it is more than possible to make advice friendly and helpful. (I'm not talking about you at all, just adding to your points. Yes, you need to be able to take criticism, but there also needs to be less rudeness.)

 

[chris82]

Absolutely, it's one thing to be offended by honest and constructive opinions, and that's a bit of a problem. It's a whole different thing when the opinions are presented in an almost vicious manner. True, it's hard to convey tone online, but it is more than possible to make advice friendly and helpful. (I'm not talking about you at all, just adding to your points. Yes, you need to be able to take criticism, but there also needs to be less rudeness.)

100%! Its not hard to tell someone that a photo they have taken is not a good one in a positive way,Point out there mistakes and give them advice on how to improve. I myself left the forum about two years ago because there were more insults than criticism(bad spelling).Telling someone that there photo sucks and they should fnd a new hobby is not constructive or if someone asks how do I do that and some one replies ever heard of google, Then that defeats the purpose of coming to a forum for help in the first plce! Dosent it?

I know that sometimes people post up these comments in a witty fashion and thats ok if the person on the reciving end has been here a while and knows what to expect I mean theres nothing wrong with a bit of banter but if the person is new we have to be more like teachers than friends at first.

I have also noticed a drop in traffic scince I was last an active member in the forum. I mean when I was here last there were in ecess of 200 members online at any given time sometimes 3 or 400 members,Now it seems the forum is peaking at around 60 or 70 users.

 

[Mersad]

I am relatively new here, and since i joined i have learned so much from you guys. I agree this forum should consist of "teachers" so to speak. But as many of you have already mentioned offering critique and being rude are two different things. I think it should be mentioned that there are still a lot of good photographers on here who know how to correct you and give you advice so that you feel like you have been taught and not looked down upon (as i have witnessed).

Still you get the "stupid" comment from time to time, where there isn't anything offered really. I had some bad experience when it turned into something personal. But the admins are here to take care of that. My advice is: don't let yourself down over "bad" comments, and take the useful ones and learn. I know i have, and in my opinion it has made me a better photographer.

So thanks again to the "teachers"! :hug::

 

[skieur]

I am relatively new here, and since i joined i have learned so much from you guys. I agree this forum should consist of "teachers" so to speak. But as many of you have already mentioned offering critique and being rude are two different things. I think it should be mentioned that there are still a lot of good photographers on here who know how to correct you and give you advice so that you feel like you have been taught and not looked down upon (as i have witnessed).

Still you get the "stupid" comment from time to time, where there isn't anything offered really. I had some bad experience when it turned into something personal. But the admins are here to take care of that. My advice is: don't let yourself down over "bad" comments, and take the useful ones and learn. I know i have, and in my opinion it has made me a better photographer.

So thanks again to the "teachers"! :hug::

I understand what you are saying, but it is unrealistic to expect all experienced photographers to have great people skills, diplomatic language skills, and teaching ability. Complaints always mention the extremes of "This photo sucks.", etc. but I often wonder whether the true issues are over clear and precise statements related to framing, over-exposure, lack of detail in shadow areas, poor composition, colour balance, sharpness, and technical issues which are important. To characterize this kind of statement as rude implies a problem with the acceptance of clear critique by the original poster.

skieur

 

[suki]

Wow, what a thread!

Well, being a newb to photography AND to this board I'd like to make a few points, or remarks to points made.

Babies/Maternity/Flowers/Pets - All are posted by newbs, right? why do you think that is? It's simple, most people that are just starting off in photography start with the basics. For most, including myself, it was landscapes and bugs in macro, then with the arrival of our youngest, baby pictures. Why? Because it's easy, it's a good starting point to learn your capabilities and to toy around with. composition does not come naturally to all, and so you tend to see alot of the same pictures over and over with the new comers. Annoying? yes, i'm sure it's annoying to those that have been in the hobby/business for x amount of years, but i'm sure you can take a moment to reflect on your earlier days and when you started out.

Regarding newbs and the desire to avoid them, I always find it amusing, humorous really, the attitude that experienced people take towards the newcomer in ANY hobby. I used to ride sportbikes and currently am part of a 4 wheeling group/community. And in both, i noticed that the "older" crowd usually doesn't want to have anything to do with the newbs. And i find that frustrating from a newbs point of view because I join forums like this to LEARN from those that are BETTER and more EXPERIENCED than I am. I can learn from trial and error, but for example. I've had my Canon rebel xs for 2 weeks and until the other night when I read a thread on this forum, could not figure out the meaning or results between changing my shutter speed and aperture (sp). I googled, I read, i asked my photog friend, and it just wasn't sticking. Someone made a very good post and it clicked, just like that and now my shots are more in focus with the background out of focus.

I've posted an intro on the main intro thread and have received one welcome, i've also posted in the beginners forum an intro and a c&c and have not received one word/post from anyone. It's not a big deal, I figure i need to establish my "place" being a new comer to show that i'm serious and not here to waste anyone's time. Now maybe it's because i posted in an area that is shunned, lol!

As i've said, over and over, i'm new. I like taking shots of my 6 month old because he is my inspiration and muse for photography at this point. As i become more educated on techniques, composition, and just having a good eye, then i'm sure i will expand to more exciting pictures that will please the elders. Until then, I hope to not bore too many of you with my plain, over shot, redundant novice pictures..... /sarcasm


One last thing, the internet is a place for everyone to flex their virtual muscles, take what people say with less than a grain of salt, or sand.. or whatever.


EDIT:
Also, i just did a search for topics related to lighting positioning and got 388 results. that's alot to weed through. Sometimes Search can be just as big as a PITA as just asking. lol, thats all.

 

[btouringkr]

One last thing, the internet is a place for everyone to flex their virtual muscles, take what people say with less than a grain of salt, or sand.. or whatever.

I think this sums it up. All around, people need to be able to detach from any drama in the threads here, because it might just be the other person's problem and not yours.

As for this forum, I haven't been around enough to notice the drama, but I have noticed that there are several experienced members who aren't afraid to be very opinionated. That can be a good thing, but it can also be a bad thing, in certain situations. For any community to thrive, new members who are willing to learn need to be integrated.

 

[JE Kay]

Newcomers need to realize that experienced photographers have seen exponentially more photographs and are more aware of the criteria that are used to judge their quality.

You're assuming the newcomer is not an experienced photographer. ;-) Just razzin' you.

But it's true, just because someone is new here doesn't mean they are new to photography or the business of photography, which are two hugely different things.

 

[sxesweets]

EDIT:
Also, i just did a search for topics related to lighting positioning and got 388 results. that's alot to weed through. Sometimes Search can be just as big as a PITA as just asking. lol, thats all.

This is what gets me when I search a subject the first 100 (or more) results are just posts telling me to search the subject because it's been answered so many times

 

[JerryPH]

This is what gets me when I search a subject the first 100 (or more) results are just posts telling me to search the subject because it's been answered so many times

Thats my pet peeve. When you have been here more than a month and start to read the same 100 posts over and over and over... I just grind my teeth a lot.

General comment not directed at you, sxesweets just at all people that ***** and whine after being told to use the search:

People that join and post without using the search are not interested in maximizing their learning, they want to be spoon fed and that "gimme an answer now, I do not care about the fact if 100 people before me asked the same question in the last month, received the SAME answer I will be getting nor that I could get answers to my questions faster than it takes for me to post the question... because I am lazy".

That attitude that gets to me like NOTHING else.

To avoid that, I refuse to even visit the beginners section anymore... and that helped for a while, but now that is starting to happen in the other areas where I do participate. I could easily see this pushing me and the other more experienced participants away... because the "newbies" who are told to do a search get all offended and raise a stink... often raising MORE of a stink responding to being told to do a search than researching what they SHOULD have been in the first place!

Don't be lazy and do take a mature responsibility about your photography edification. A search is not a bad thing... if it was, the people who put it there would remove it.

Try it, you'll like it... and likely learn MORE in the end than you expected. It worked for me, and it worked for thousands of others. It *will* work for you. All it takes is not being lazy.

If that doesn't work for you, the alternative is that we should suggest that the board gets wiped once a year and we can then all start all over, AGAIN asking the same questions... but this time, read them once, instead of over and over and over. Of course I was not being serious about this last paragraph, however it does make a valid point... the info is here. We have people that have posts in the 10s, 20s and even 30 thousands!! You do NOT get that level without writing SOMETHING beneficial to someone that is new here, but the new ones with this attitude won't EVER see this... because they are too busy whining about being told to do a search.

I am an advanced amateur. When I first got here 2 years ago, I barely knew the basics of ISO, shutter and aperture. EACH AND EVERY question I had from that day CONTINUING NOW had an answer here. If it was not here (perhaps 10 questions in 2 years), a 30 second google found me the answer. I will throw up the challenge again... find me *2* posts in my near 5000 where I asked questions... you will not find them. Why? Because I did not need to ask them... because the answer was here already! I was not lazy to search.

Photography has been around for hundreds of years. This forum has been here for years as well. I would say that 99% of most newbie and intermediate level questions have an answer here. "oh but if I cannot post my question, what are we supposed to post?" If you cannot find anything to post about that is not contributing to the board and/or your edification... try this on for size... don't post!! Go shoot your camera, which is what photography *IS* about, and fall into situations that are worthy of being posted about and are not under the "what camera / what lens / what is ISO, shutter, aperture / what should I spend my money on / what is the difference between / what end of a camera do I look into" mode of questions. These are all questions that have answers in NAUSEATING DETAIL over and over and are available to you WITHOUT needing to ask here, and if not here then a simple google search away.

 

[sxesweets]

Thats my pet peeve. When you have been here more than a month and start to read the same 100 posts over and over and over... I just grind my teeth a lot.

General comment not directed at you, sxesweets just at all people that ***** and whine after being told to use the search

Thanks for not directing that at me, it totally wasn't intended as a "*****" persay just an observation

I stopped bothering to post my questions, I search things now and if I can't find an answer or just find posts telling me to search it I don't bother posting my question I just go google things or ask at the local camera store. Was giving it some thought last night and I think the reason I still visit here is to see the critiques of others work so that I can at least learn a bit from that.

**Not directed at anyone**
An easy solution to the "begginer questions would be an application process to be a member, so basically a private board. In that situation you really could/would have grounds to chew someone out for asking a "stupid" question. Or maybe just get rid of the beginner section so that they have to go out and shoot photos until they run into a problem that isn't begginer.

 

[JE Kay]

Yeah I unfortunately know a poor D200 which never found it's way out of ProgramAuto mode. I think every time someone clicks the shutter on that thing god kills a kitten.

I know this has nothing to do with this thread, it's just every time I read that I start laughing out loud, it's sooooo hilarious. :lmao:

 

[Mersad]

I understand what you are saying, but it is unrealistic to expect all experienced photographers to have great people skills, diplomatic language skills, and teaching ability. Complaints always mention the extremes of "This photo sucks.", etc. but I often wonder whether the true issues are over clear and precise statements related to framing, over-exposure, lack of detail in shadow areas, poor composition, colour balance, sharpness, and technical issues which are important. To characterize this kind of statement as rude implies a problem with the acceptance of clear critique by the original poster.

skieur

Of course, comments over framing, exposure, etc. (if they are done wrong), are not rude. I never said that. There are other kinds of comments. I'm usually the kind of person who takes criticism well, even though you won't find a person who likes it. It just comes with the territory.

Also being polite doesn't come from having diplomatic language skills, and teaching abilities. It's a about common manners.

 

[suki]

I think one solution to eliminate alot of the basic/repetitive questions is to post a sticky in the beginners forum covering some of the basics. Something along the lines of "New to photograph? Check out some of the FAQ's to get you started" Or a simple "Read Me FIRST!" will most likely draw them into that thread first, and even if they DO post up before reading that thread, then atleast they can be directed there instead of being told "do a search you lazy jerk, I've already answered that question months ago." lol

I don't get offended or irritated from either ends, if I can't find it on my own, i'll ask. And if that irritates someone, then they have to choice to a) not read my post b) not answer c) tell me to do a search or d) answer the question

If I've been at something for a while and have developed my skills and knowledge and someone posts up a question that I just answered 10 times, it's not a big deal to me. I'll either answer it or direct them to the other thread.

That is exactly HOW i found this forum in the first place was by doing google searches for information, reading other sites, articles, etc before I stumbled on here. I still google for information when I need to, run a search on here or if someone has posted a thread and I like something in there, I'll ask in that thread how they did it.

Anyhow, that's my take on it.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Is it just me or are there suddenly far too many touchy people on the forum creating arguments where there need not be any? What happened to live and let live?
Thanks for listening.

Don't worry, its just that time of year with spring time hormones and allergy's going crazy in the majority of the US yet.