Is there really a point in shooting RAW?

[roadkill]

Raw files are usually 9-12 megs and jpegs are like 150 kb.

 

[Ejazzle]

my jpegs are like 7megs.

jpegs are edited in camera, noise reduction, high iso NR, vividness etc. Have you ever shot a picture in raw then the same exact one in jpeg? The jpeg usually looks better coming straight from the camera. Where as the Raw looks more bland and you do it up in PP

 

[djacobox372]

my jpegs are like 7megs.

jpegs are edited in camera, noise reduction, high iso NR, vividness etc. Have you ever shot a picture in raw then the same exact one in jpeg? The jpeg usually looks better coming straight from the camera. Where as the Raw looks more bland and you do it up in PP

True, however if all those settings you mention aren't "spot-on" you can't erase them and start over again without some degradation, as you can with raw.

What irks me is why all those "in-camera" tweaks can't be saved into the header information of a raw capture to give me a better starting point in lightroom.

 

[tsaraleksi]

True, however if all those settings you mention aren't "spot-on" you can't erase them and start over again without some degradation, as you can with raw.

What irks me is why all those "in-camera" tweaks can't be saved into the header information of a raw capture to give me a better starting point in lightroom.

This is a pretty mediocre solution but if you really want to work with the in camera tweaks, you can process through Canon's DPP.

 

[Ejazzle]

True, however if all those settings you mention aren't "spot-on" you can't erase them and start over again without some degradation, as you can with raw.

What irks me is why all those "in-camera" tweaks can't be saved into the header information of a raw capture to give me a better starting point in lightroom.

if they had that id be all raw.

but for the important stuff its raw + jpeg for me. Problem solved.

 

[Ygrazi]

I still didn't figure out the whole PS thing, even though I switched color modes on my camera, but I realized in NX capture, they're default setting was set to highest compression. Now why in the world would they do that??? I somehow kept overlooking it (I thought the advanced arrow was down, but it wasn't)
I set it to the highest quality. Problem Solved.
I'm just happy I can keep shooting in RAW.
Thanks everyone!

 

[JerryPH]

I have 2 comments about this:

1 - this is a question that comes up all the time. If you do a search, you will see we hashed and rehashed this topic many times already.

2 - Google is your friend.

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=why+shoot+RAW%3F&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

 

[Garbz]

jpegs are edited in camera, noise reduction, high iso NR, vividness etc. Have you ever shot a picture in raw then the same exact one in jpeg? The jpeg usually looks better coming straight from the camera. Where as the Raw looks more bland and you do it up in PP

True, however if all those settings you mention aren't "spot-on" you can't erase them and start over again without some degradation, as you can with raw.

What irks me is why all those "in-camera" tweaks can't be saved into the header information of a raw capture to give me a better starting point in lightroom.

Guys head over to AdobeLabs, signup, and download Camera Profiles Beta2.0 for Lightroom and set lightroom to use the new profiles rather than the ACR defaults.
For Nikon they provide profiles to match standard, vivid, portait, neutral and 3 and three modes carried from the D2x's camera settings. Not sure what canon settings it replicates.

This solves the problem of a poor starting point, and bland raws. In fact lightroom defaults look pretty much identical to camera jpeg using these.

 

[JerryPH]

Quick note... the Camera Raw 5.1 plug-in is not compatible with versions of Photoshop earlier than Photoshop CS4, versions of Photoshop Elements earlier than Photoshop Elements 6.0, or versions of Premiere Elements earlier than 4.0.

People with CS3 cannot use the latest version of ACR 5.1, it is not compatible at all.
Just a little heads up on a non-related topic... lol

The camera profiles added work nicely with CS3 and are a breeze to install (just execute the file follow the prompts). I am not sure if they add something for me personally, but for people that are perhaps a little new to PS and want to use the profiles to get their pics into a better starting point, I can see how it would be useful for them. I'll need to play with them a little more before I fully make up my mind.

Nice find, Garbz!

 

[SilverGlow]

I just wanted to clarify that a raw image has no color space.

It might have a tag in the meta-data area showing a color space, but the raw it's self has no color space.

JPG images of course can be assigned a color space.

Of course during raw conversion, one can assign a color space to the resulting PhotoShop file...

Maybe most of you guys know this, but judging from the posts here, it seems some might think otherwise.

 

[JerryPH]

Not my words, but:

Some answer no for various reasons. Some say that the raw file can not have a color space because it is monochrome and contains no color. Of course, no file can contain color, since color is a perception and exists only in the eye and brain. What raw files and RGB files do contain is color information in the form of tristimulus color values that are perceived as color when projected on the retina. The RGB file contains three color values per pixel, for a complete RGB representation. The raw file of a Bayer array camera
contains only one color per pixel, and the other two are interpolated from adjacent pixels in the demosaicing process. Nonetheless, color information is present in the raw file and does not magically appear during demosaicing.

The recognition that the raw file does have a color space is useful in understanding how raw files are processed. Examples with code are available in DCRaw and Dng_verify, a command line program written by Thomas Knoll.

In the DNG program and DCRaw, 3 by 3 matrix conversions are used to convert from the camera space to an internal working space, in the same fashion as one would convert from ProPhotoRGB to Adobe RGB. In the case of DNG, the working space is linear ProPhotoRGB, while in the case of DCRaw, it is apparently CIE XYZ. DNG uses the dng_matrix & CameraToPCS () function to determine the white point x,y values. Thus, it is apparent that the raw file contains all the elements of a color space, either explicitly or implicitly in the form of metadata, camera profiles, or other information. Furthermore, in the source code quoted below, Thomas Knoll refers to the “camera native space” and “camera color space”, which would indicate that he thinks that the camera does have a color space that is represented in the raw file and the camera profile.

Appendix

RGB Matrix profile (example is aRGB) :
Gamma 2.2
White point
K 6500
x, y: 0.3127, 0.3290
Primaries
x y
R 0.6400, 0.3300
G 0.2100, 0.7100
B 0.1500 0.0600

Raw File
Primaries: determined by CFA filters and silicon spectral response, stored in camera profile

Gamma 1.0
White point: stored in tag to raw file
White point x, y: recovered by dng_matrix & CameraToPCS () function in DNG_verify


3 by 3 matrix for Canon 1Ds, used by DCRaw
6517,-602,-867,
-8180,15926,2378,
-1618,1771,7633
Code Extracts
/*****************************************************************************/
// Copyright 2006 Adobe Systems Incorporated
// All Rights Reserved.
//
// NOTICE: Adobe permits you to use, modify, and distribute this file in
// accordance with the terms of the Adobe license agreement accompanying it.
/*****************************************************************************/

/* $Id: //mondo/dng_sdk_1_1/dng_sdk/source/dng_render.cpp#1 $ */
/* $DateTime: 2006/04/05 18:24:55 $ */
/* $Change: 215171 $ */
/* $Author: tknoll $ */

/*****************************************************************************/
for (int32 srcRow = srcArea.t; srcRow < srcArea.b; srcRow++)
{

// First convert from camera native space to linear PhotoRGB,
// applying the white balance and camera profile.

const dng_matrix & CameraToPCS () const;

/// Return the XY value to use for SetWhiteXY for a given camera color space coordinate as the white point.
/// \param neutral A camera color space value to use for white point. Components range from 0.0 to 1.0 and should be normalized such that the largest value is 1.0 .
/// \retval White point in XY space that makes neutral map to this XY value as closely as possible.


DCRAW
/*
Thanks to Adobe for providing these excellent CAM -> XYZ matrices!
*/
{ "Canon EOS-1Ds Mark II", 0,
{ 6517,-602,-867,-8180,15926,2378,-1618,1771,7633 } },

-------------------------------------------------------

That's some pretty hard evidence that contradicts you saying that RAW has no color space.

 

[SilverGlow]

Not my words, but:

Some answer no for various reasons. Some say that the raw file can not have a color space because it is monochrome and contains no color. Of course, no file can contain color, since color is a perception and exists only in the eye and brain. What raw files and RGB files do contain is color information in the form of tristimulus color values that are perceived as color when projected on the retina. The RGB file contains three color values per pixel, for a complete RGB representation. The raw file of a Bayer array camera
contains only one color per pixel, and the other two are interpolated from adjacent pixels in the demosaicing process. Nonetheless, color information is present in the raw file and does not magically appear during demosaicing.

The recognition that the raw file does have a color space is useful in understanding how raw files are processed. Examples with code are available in DCRaw and Dng_verify, a command line program written by Thomas Knoll.

In the DNG program and DCRaw, 3 by 3 matrix conversions are used to convert from the camera space to an internal working space, in the same fashion as one would convert from ProPhotoRGB to Adobe RGB. In the case of DNG, the working space is linear ProPhotoRGB, while in the case of DCRaw, it is apparently CIE XYZ. DNG uses the dng_matrix & CameraToPCS () function to determine the white point x,y values. Thus, it is apparent that the raw file contains all the elements of a color space, either explicitly or implicitly in the form of metadata, camera profiles, or other information. Furthermore, in the source code quoted below, Thomas Knoll refers to the &#8220;camera native space&#8221; and &#8220;camera color space&#8221;, which would indicate that he thinks that the camera does have a color space that is represented in the raw file and the camera profile.

Appendix

RGB Matrix profile (example is aRGB) :
Gamma 2.2
White point
K 6500
x, y: 0.3127, 0.3290
Primaries
x y
R 0.6400, 0.3300
G 0.2100, 0.7100
B 0.1500 0.0600

Raw File
Primaries: determined by CFA filters and silicon spectral response, stored in camera profile

Gamma 1.0
White point: stored in tag to raw file
White point x, y: recovered by dng_matrix & CameraToPCS () function in DNG_verify


3 by 3 matrix for Canon 1Ds, used by DCRaw
6517,-602,-867,
-8180,15926,2378,
-1618,1771,7633
Code Extracts
/*****************************************************************************/
// Copyright 2006 Adobe Systems Incorporated
// All Rights Reserved.
//
// NOTICE: Adobe permits you to use, modify, and distribute this file in
// accordance with the terms of the Adobe license agreement accompanying it.
/*****************************************************************************/

/* $Id: //mondo/dng_sdk_1_1/dng_sdk/source/dng_render.cpp#1 $ */
/* $DateTime: 2006/04/05 18:24:55 $ */
/* $Change: 215171 $ */
/* $Author: tknoll $ */

/*****************************************************************************/
for (int32 srcRow = srcArea.t; srcRow < srcArea.b; srcRow++)
{

// First convert from camera native space to linear PhotoRGB,
// applying the white balance and camera profile.

const dng_matrix & CameraToPCS () const;

/// Return the XY value to use for SetWhiteXY for a given camera color space coordinate as the white point.
/// \param neutral A camera color space value to use for white point. Components range from 0.0 to 1.0 and should be normalized such that the largest value is 1.0 .
/// \retval White point in XY space that makes neutral map to this XY value as closely as possible.


DCRAW
/*
Thanks to Adobe for providing these excellent CAM -> XYZ matrices!
*/
{ "Canon EOS-1Ds Mark II", 0,
{ 6517,-602,-867,-8180,15926,2378,-1618,1771,7633 } },

-------------------------------------------------------

That's some pretty hard evidence that contradicts you saying that RAW has no color space.

I will have to stand by my claim that a raw image has no color space. You can view this wiki definition on raw images and it agrees with my understanding of raw images and color spaces: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_image_format

Here is a snippet from that link:

Camera raw files have 12 or 14 bits of intensity information, not the gamma-compressed 8 bits typically stored in processed TIFF and JPEG files; since the data is not yet rendered and clipped to a color space gamut, more precision may be available in highlights, shadows, and saturated colors.

The code you posted does not prove that a raw image has a color space, nor does the information you cut and pasted in. Sure the code references color space, but that is all it is: a reference. The link you posted from is not hard evidence, nor even soft evidence. It is non-evidence ;-)

You can shoot the same exact comp in raw, and set your camera's color space to a different value each time, and yet the images will have the same identical data values when brought into raw program. Now a Nikon and Canon raw image will REFERENCE the color space (in the meta-data) that was set at the time the raw was created, but that is not the same thing as saying that a raw has a color space.

Why do you think ACR promtps for a color space? Because a raw image does not have one.

And I would challange anyone to try to assign a color space to a raw image. You can not.

A color space defines how raw values map to an output device. It is about presentation. And in fact, regardless of what the color space was set to when a raw image was made, the raw data is never effected.

Now if you use Canon's DPP post processing software to bring in a raw, the DEFAULT color space it will use is the color space the camera was set to at the time the raw image was made...think of it as a "suggested" color space to assigne the converted image, and does not effect the corresponding raw image. Perhaps Nikon's proprietary post processing program does the same thing, I don't know.

Now a jpg will be made with a truly assigned color space, that is for sure. Think of it this way: A jpg image is mapped to a color space. A Raw image is not mapped to a color space. A jpg defines colors that are mapped as defined by a color space. A raw image defines tonal graduations per channel and is governed by bit depth.