Learning to say No is hard as a beginner

[LiquidGrace]

When you're starting out you often want to say yes to every request, and demand made by your client. Or at least that's how I felt in the beginning. Today I had a friend of the family (whose daughters wedding I did last year) ask to do her sisters wedding. She requested that I go to a place 'only' 12 hours from where I live. For some reason I couldn't help but shake my head. She of course was just expecting to have her only pay for the wedding package. It's mind boggling how some people seem to feel entitled to certain things because they are a family friend of my mothers. I had to put my foot down and say "I could do it but my traveling expenses and accommodations for both my assistant and I will need to be paid for on top of the wedding packages." She responded back with a bunch of ... and a quick "Oh, ok........Bye then." I could read it wrong but it seems like she was expecting me to just come and do the wedding and only ever charge for the photography itself.

I'm still starting out and took a break since moving to the US, so I could claim a small business in the US, and get insured etc here . This wedding is in 1 year and I'll most likely have everything together by then but I have to admit it's still hard saying No. But there comes a point where you have to set a limit.

I guess I'm looking for others who have people who assume such things with them?

 

[Yvonne_Dubai]

I'm not in your shoes at all, but I totally agree with you about saying no. It's only logical that travel expenses plus accommodation would be paid for. I understand it's hard to say no, but if they really want you to come over they'll come back to you and say that they'll pay for it all. Good luck!

 

[KmH]

Something is terribly wrong if a beginner photographer has 'clients'.

I have moved your thread from the Beginner's forum to the General Shop Talk forum in The Business District section of the forums.

 

[groan]

Something is terribly wrong if a beginner photographer has 'clients'.

I have moved your thread from the Beginner's forum to the General Shop Talk forum in The Business District section of the forums.

I got the feeling that they are beginning to offer it as a service, besides, you were a beginner at one point don't you think all beginners are entitled to a client?
A bit of an odd comment on a forum that is supposed to be offering help, don't you think?

 

[Josh220]

Something is terribly wrong if a beginner photographer has 'clients'.

I have moved your thread from the Beginner's forum to the General Shop Talk forum in The Business District section of the forums.

I got the feeling that they are beginning to offer it as a service, besides, you were a beginner at one point don't you think all beginners are entitled to a client?
A bit of an odd comment on a forum that is supposed to be offering help, don't you think?


Added from my Galaxy S2 via TapATalk!

You'll get used to it. They're more forgiving of trolls, though.

 

[12sndsgood]

I havn't been in your shoes but i'm sure I will be one day. My thought on the matter is you have to do what you feel is right for your business. If you make exceptions to your own rules and start making changes just to get a job your not going to wind up making what you wanted and doing what you wanted. Stick to your guns. Selling yourself short is not going to help you in the end.

 

[cgipson1]

Something is terribly wrong if a beginner photographer has 'clients'.

I have moved your thread from the Beginner's forum to the General Shop Talk forum in The Business District section of the forums.

I got the feeling that they are beginning to offer it as a service, besides, you were a beginner at one point don't you think all beginners are entitled to a client?
A bit of an odd comment on a forum that is supposed to be offering help, don't you think?


Added from my Galaxy S2 via TapATalk!

Most beginners lack the SKILL to have a client, unless that client is perfectly happy with CRAP photography! Most Wanna Be Pros that we get here, know nothing about correct exposure, color balance, flash, DOF, modifiers, reflectors, lenses, or how to use their expensive (to them! $500 LOL!) bodies.

When the "PRO's" are asking the simplest of BEGINNER QUESTIONS.. something is wrong! Do you disagree with that?

 

[Austin Greene]

Something is terribly wrong if a beginner photographer has 'clients'.

I have moved your thread from the Beginner's forum to the General Shop Talk forum in The Business District section of the forums.

I got the feeling that they are beginning to offer it as a service, besides, you were a beginner at one point don't you think all beginners are entitled to a client?
A bit of an odd comment on a forum that is supposed to be offering help, don't you think?


Added from my Galaxy S2 via TapATalk!

Oh, this will be good...

 

[pgriz]

@ liquidgrace: The people you're involved with have no idea what is required. So, why not put together a checklist for yourself that identifies all the steps you need to do to carry out a successful wedding engagement. For instance (and this is just a sample so don't it for granted that I have covered everything - I am NOT a wedding photographer!):

1) Define scope of client expectations (locations, number of photos, timing, deliverables)
2) Write contract describing the shooting plan, the deliverables, the preconditions that have to be fulfilled by the client, the deposit, the boilerplate regarding liability, unforseen events, etc.
3) Obtain client signature and deposit.
4) Visit locations and determine lighting equipment needs, scout out possible shooting locations and determine the rules regarding use of light/strobes, etc.
5) Prepare lighting equipment and backdrops
6) Meet with client and review the shooting plan, the "must" shots, the key moments, and the overall timing.
7) Arrange with your shooting team or second shooters the plan, the equipment to be brought and the assignments.
8) ....

59) process the proofs chosen by the client and produce the final deliverable.
60) Deliver the "deliverables", review with client and get balance of contract payment and any extras.


Then send this checklist to your friend and say "this is my checklist to do a wedding. As you can see, it represents a significant effort on my part and costs such as travel, equipment rental, hiring of second shooters, paying for production, etc. require significant outlay of cash. Are you prepared to do this? If yes, then we can start with step 1 on the list."

I'm sure they will say they had no idea...

 

[LiquidGrace]

Woah,

Sorry it took me so so long to respond to this.. I have a good portfolio built up and a strong grasp of what I'm doing. My question comes more from a place of when you finally get to the point where you start to realize that saying 'Yes' to every client request isn't necessary. Making that switch from saying 'Yes' for the sake of the experience, love of photography etc to saying 'no' when the moment and job requires it.

I have found since this last post I've gained far more respect for my work to say no to insane requests, or to say "This will cost you extra". I have found in the past 3 weddings I've done that when I set up the boundaries and specific expectations that things go a lot smoother. Mind you there are those clients who still don't get that "No your wedding photos won't be done in a week." Even when you spell out the turn around time in your contract. I found when I started out (when I posted this mind you I had 10 weddings under my belt so consider it more of a rant). My rant comes from clients expecting things to be free or insanely fast turn around times. My frustration comes from the almost ignorance some people have towards this profession. I found that this situation was far more geared towards beginners in the 'business' not photography if you get what I mean. I will still consider myself a beginner in the business for many years to come. I have a lot of growing to do. I have found this site and a few professional mentors to really help give me the tools I needed to become the confident photographer I needed to be.

I'm sorry if many were offended by the fact that this was in the beginners thread or that I used the word 'client'. But I assure you I am very well seasoned with photography so the notion that I may be ignorant to photography as a whole is a rather bold assumption to make of someone you know little about. A little understanding goes a long way. Hopefully my post helped to elaborate on what I was trying to get across the first time. I felt it may be beneficial to other beginners (in the business) to hear what seasoned veterans had to say.

I do appreciate that list and wish that many understood just what it takes to do a wedding. I have always toyed with the idea of putting a FAQ together for my blog that's nice but informative to prospective clients. Again I really think it comes down to the ignorance of just what we do.

 

[Vautrin]

It is human nature to try to take advantage as best you can. Also, it is human nature to be selfish and not think of demands you place on other people.

After all, how many times have you walked into a shop and said "I'm sorry, your prices are too cheap, I'm going to pay you twice what you're asking!"?

Given this, you need to understand the business mindset, and be willing to draw the line at ridiculous requests. Otherwise people will just take advantage of you.

 

[Mully]

Something is terribly wrong if a beginner photographer has 'clients'.

I have moved your thread from the Beginner's forum to the General Shop Talk forum in The Business District section of the forums.

When is it OK to start in photography?? everyone is a beginner at some point. every single thing in life has a first time

 

[cgipson1]

Something is terribly wrong if a beginner photographer has 'clients'.

I have moved your thread from the Beginner's forum to the General Shop Talk forum in The Business District section of the forums.

When is it OK to start in photography?? everyone is a beginner at some point. every single thing in life has a first time

But who says every photographer has to go "pro"? And wouldn't a couple of years of good experience and learning benefit anyone that did want to start charging?

We see so many that:

#1. haven't even bought a camera yet...

or

#2. Got first camera less than a year ago (never read the manual, have no concept of the basics, is a """natural""" light P mode photographer only, don't know how to use flash, has one bad kit lens, has "Major" ego and attitude due to Facebook telling them how great they are)

That come on here saying they are going PRO! (and then they ask US how to shoot the next gig they signed up for, and don't have a CLUE how to shoot!)

How can we take that seriously? I think this is where the aversion to "Beginner" and "Clients" being used in the same sentence comes from! lol!

 

[tirediron]

When is it OK to start in photography?? everyone is a beginner at some point. every single thing in life has a first time

Yes, yes, they are, BUT just like any other field, beginners need to learn, study and practice before they assume the role of a professional. Would you want your doctor trying to remove your appendix the day after he bought his first scalpel (NOT a comment directed at the OP, just responding to this post)?

 

[thetrue]

How does one actually determine if they are ready to "go pro" to begin with? I mean legitimately, not fly by night, unregistered and uninsured FB style.