Legalities of photographers

[Senor Hound]

gryphonslair, your post is depressing... It makes me wanna move someplace where the law enforcement works for the people, keeping us safe and not against the everyday citizen. I still get a feeling that the police officers of America have a, "its us against them" policy, and most, if not all, are rudely skeptical of EVERYONE they meet (which is very off-putting). You can be suspicious without being rude, but this seems to be a concept most law officers I've personally met (even my own uncle) do not understand. But I will not speak of you that way, cause that is not fair to put words and thoughts into others mouths and minds. And obviously you are a different style of person, cause most would not have bothered to write such a detailed response to me (thank you).

Maybe European police agencies are a little more friendly and whatnot...

 

[JerryPH]

I can't begin to count how many times I've been stopped and ticketed by cops on my bike for riding it in the street as opposed to the sidewalk.

Perfect example... in Montreal, a bicyclist is considered under and mandated to follow the SAME laws as a motorcycle or car. That means that driving on the sidewalk is illegal and ticketable. Sidewalks are the exclusive venue of pedestrians.

Different laws for different countries, counties or even town to town.

Check locally yourself BEFORE doing anything you are not sure about and need to clarify.

 

[table1349]

gryphonslair, your post is depressing... It makes me wanna move someplace where the law enforcement works for the people, keeping us safe and not against the everyday citizen. I still get a feeling that the police officers of America have a, "its us against them" policy, and most, if not all, are rudely skeptical of EVERYONE they meet (which is very off-putting). You can be suspicious without being rude, but this seems to be a concept most law officers I've personally met (even my own uncle) do not understand. But I will not speak of you that way, cause that is not fair to put words and thoughts into others mouths and minds. And obviously you are a different style of person, cause most would not have bothered to write such a detailed response to me (thank you).

Maybe European police agencies are a little more friendly and whatnot...

While I understand what you are saying, the best explanation I can provide is with a little game. Below will be photographs of 8 people. Pick which ones you think are dangerous and which are not. Don't study them, instant decision. The same way an officer must do. You have a maximum of 2 seconds a photo to decide. Your life, a fellow officers life or the life of a citizen may hang in the balance. Or it all may be just a false call. Don't look at the photo title, just the photo and make a snap decision. Give it a try and see how you fare.

1.

2.

3.

4.

5.

6.

All done. Think you know the good guys from the bad guys here? If you took the test as instructed you might have a sense of what every call, every cars stop, and every contact with unknown individuals is like.

Having lived in Germany and having a British Bobby ride with me for a shift a few years ago, I understand what you are saying about a more relaxed attitude. I will give you an observation made near the end of my shift that the Bobby made about the differences in police work. Keep in mind that my beat at the time encompassed one of the roughest areas in the city where I work as well as some very nice areas.

He found that he preferred his form of law enforcement because it was more relaxed and friendly in general. (Maybe it was the shooting I had to work and he got to see. It was his first in 9 years of law enforcement)

He also told me it could be that way because their citizens had fewer freedoms than ours did. They had less concerns in general than law enforcement does in the US. If they get a call that appears to involve something like a handgun they do not respond in the same way we do. They would not enter into the "Lions Den" as he put it. They would wait for one of the special squads who's members are trained to use firearms. They would just surround the area and try and keep the incident contained until one of the firearm squads arrived. That was slowly being replaced in places like London because of the change in crime that was beginning to occur.

The sad fact is, if you give me some of your freedoms then I will give you a smile the next time I show up to your disturbance, rape, robbery, stabbing, shooting, etc. etc. etc. If there are certain things that I do not have to worry as much about, and the citizenry are of a different mindset then mine can change as well. I know it is a line from a movie, but Sean Connery summed it up perfectly in "The Untouchables." "The number one rule of law enforcement is to go home at the end of your shift." Personally, I'm not sure I am ready to give up those freedoms.


Ok, think you go the good guys picked out from the bad guys?

1 Sam Berkowitz - Son of Sam

2. Karla Homolka A Female Serial Killer lying on he bunk in Joilette prison - Still wanted by the Canadian authorities for crimes there. Probably never going to get her as she will probably never get out of prison in the US.

3. Fred and Rose West - Husband and wife serial killer team. Responsible for at least 12 deaths. You know what they say, "The family that kills together has thrills together."

4. Ted Bundy - That one was the gimmie. Looks pretty nice there huh?

5. Caril Fugate and Charlie Starkweather. Dear Caril Fugate, at 14 she and her 17 year old boyfriend Charlie Starkweather went on a killing spree in the Midwest. Killed 10 people. She was 14 at the time. Chuck got fried and Caril served a long sentence. Got out, got married and disappeared into obscurity.

6. Bonnie Parker- Of Boonie and Clyde fame. Enough said. Wonder if she handled the Ukelele[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica] as well as she did a gun?

Yep every one of them was a killer. You probably figured that much from the beginning. But seriously look at the photos. If you saw any one of those faces on the street would your first though have been murderer?

Please keep in mind, I am not condoning rudeness, not even by officers. But what some believe is rudeness is in fact just officers doing one thing and one thing only. That would be focusing their entire attention to the situation. A situation that you hardly ever know what it is at first. That is to keep them and others alive.

Look at it from the other side. When was the last time you invited your beat officer to dinner at your house? Cops have to eat too you know, even when they are working. Granted, due to our nature on the job they probably would not accept, at least not until they got to know you, but the point is, why haven't you done it?

I would challange you with this, next time you see your local beat officer, not engaged in some form of investigation, but on routine patrol. Wave to them with a smile on your face. If they can stop, talk to them for a minute. Like you would any other person. Once they get past the surprise, you might find that when they are not having to focus their entire attention on the situation at hand they can be quite different.

Keep in mind, in every walk of life there are Butt Heads, Dumb S%!&$, and A## Holes. Even in law enforcement. Even in photography. Sometimes you are just destined to end up with one of them for a short period of time. Life goes on.
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[Senor Hound]

I get what you're saying, Gryphon. And although I don't necessarily think its right, I'll concede.

And I have chit-chatted with police officers, many times. I live in a small town, and this is very easy to do. But when they put on their uniform, they walk around like they're better than me, and when you try and talk to them while they're on duty, they stare through you like they don't know who you are. And they act like you're wasting their time, even though they aren't going anywhere (I worked at a gas station, and they'd sit in there and drink coffee).

And it does frustrate me that I can get pulled over by a cop for doing three miles over the speed limit (58 in a 55, but I will admit I only got an unofficial warning), yet the people who live beside me (about 1/4 of a mile away, I live in the woods) have a meth lab that never gets busted. And I know about seven people who have reported a very strange smell, and cars going in and out at all hours of the night, yet not even an investigation into it after a year. I know its not your fault. I don't even think its most police officers' fault, but there is a funky system going on, and about 5% of you officers out there ruin the police's image for the rest of you.

Some people I know say you police are afraid to do the real work needed like fighting real criminals, and instead try and boost revenue by pulling average joes over. But that's mean and untrue. I know you guys do put your neck on the line every time you pull someone over. It's all just so frustrating to us civilians who need you. We want to trust you so bad, we want to think you're heroes (like we think firefighters and paramedics are), but we just CAN'T when we're secretly afraid of your power and how you might abuse us with it.

 

[patrickt]

The threads on legalities are common enough that some have tried, without a great deal of success, to write handy pamphlets. It's like writing a pamphelt on the rights of birdwatchers, joggers, or any other activity.

They frequently use phrases like "public property" or "public right-of-way" and suggest that you're free to take any photos you want on public property or on a public right-of-way. Unfortunately, that's simply not true. If you doubt this, take you camera to a courtroom and start snapping pictures. If you get to keep your camera you can snap pictures of the jail. Both are, by some definitions, public property. Or, the Rolling Stones are performing at a stadium owned by the state. Public property. Can rules restricting photography be put in place and enforced? Yes, they can.

Please keep in mind that for every attorney who says something is perfectly legal, you can find another attorney who says it isn't. That's what keeps attorneys in business. Now, if the answer were clear, and would fit in a pamphlet, you wouldn't even need a trial. But sometimes a hapless photographer gets to be a test case and a jury of parents and grandparents gets to decide if his photos of kids on the school playground were legal.

Keep in mind that a police officers job isn't about the law. It's about problems and the law is a tool for solving a problem. If there is no problem the law isn't needed. If you're standing on a sidewalk taking photos and there's no problem you will probably not meet a police officer. If there is a problem, you will possibly meet a police officer.

I've been contacted once by the police when I was taking photos. I was in an alley taking a picture of a fire escape. A police officer wanted to know why I was in an alley at 3 a.m. shooting a picture of something as boring as a fire escape. I explained what I was doing and why I was doing it at three in the morning. I gave him my drivers license and he wrote down the information. I understood why he stopped and I assumed that if one of the businesses on the alley got burgled I would probably be meeting some more police officers.

Generally speaking, police officers meet enough strange people that photographers don't surprise them. They also meet enough burglars, perverts, and assorted miscreants that holding a camera does not confer any special protection.

Also wait when you hear stories on the forums for "the rest of the story."

Senor Hound: I understand what you're saying about police officers being different off-duty and on-duty. When my children were young they called one our best friend, "Gerri." They were confused when they got in school and had to call her "Ms. Irvine." Isn't she Gerri any more? There were people who I could joke with either off-duty or on-duty when we were alone but not in front of other people. A man I had arrested frequently bought the house next door to my home. I saw him in the yard when he was moving in and waved and said, "Hi, Tom." "Hi, Mr. Kelly." I waved him over and said, "When we're neighbors my name is Pat. If you're with your friends I'm Mr. Kelly." He laughed and understood perfectly well.

 

[KD5NRH]

yet the people who live beside me (about 1/4 of a mile away, I live in the woods) have a meth lab that never gets busted. And I know about seven people who have reported a very strange smell, and cars going in and out at all hours of the night, yet not even an investigation into it after a year.

Investigations like that are a real pain for the departments; they have to gather information without tipping off the suspects, and they have to do the rest of their patrolling as well, so they tend to do it a little at a time and as covertly as possible. If you have a long lens and a clear line of sight to the place, you could try finding an approachable officer and offering him some time/date stamped photos of activity there, preferably with license plates. Odds are they know enough of your local methheads that once they can document two or three of them showing up for 10 minutes at strange hours and bringing chemicals or leaving with small packages, they can move to a more agressive phase of investigation.

It should go without saying that you should also be discreet in photographing anything over there, since they've got a lot to lose if you get them busted. Standing out in the open with a 1300mm lens pointed at them could provoke violence...or it might just provoke some activity that you could photograph to bring immediate action from the cops.

 

[IllegalDamage]

I thought I'd throw a couple out there Here's one and now another.

I had to point this out in the USA Today article (which is quite good btw):

You also can find yourself in civil court if you publish a shot that places a person in a false light. That might be more of an issue with the caption than with the photo; running a shot of the mayor and his daughter labeled "Mayor meets with porn star" could land you in hot water. (Assuming his daughter isn't a porn star.)

That's hilarious XD

 

[THORHAMMER]

The real question here is what were undercover police officers doing

at a Britney spears concert buying pink heels with her signature on them.

If you hadn't caught that on film, you'd not be bothered....

 

[Mike A.]

Just was arrested for taking a photo on public street 5 houses from my own home!! 7-9-08 12:45 pm. USA
I'm fighting this one!! ARRRRRRRRRRR!!!
The Postal person complained about it.
They want me to pay $235.00. They call it Disorderly Conduct!
Just walking and taking a picture. Kind of disorderly to me??
I hope this sounds all right..........just had a stroke and I'm starting all over again! ........read.....write.....camera....building....

mike a.
And I,m the NOOB here.

 

[Senor Hound]

Just was arrested for taking a photo on public street 5 houses from my own home!! 7-9-08 12:45 pm. USA
I'm fighting this one!! ARRRRRRRRRRR!!!
The Postal person complained about it.
They want me to pay $235.00. They call it Disorderly Conduct!
Just walking and taking a picture. Kind of disorderly to me??
I hope this sounds all right..........just had a stroke and I'm starting all over again!........read.....write.....camera....building....

mike a.
And I,m the NOOB here.

Hello, Mike a., the NOOB.

Sorry to hear about your medical conditions. You are a brave man for learning everything over again, as many people just give up. And your writing is very good, I would not have known you had a problem writing if you wouldn't have said anything.

I suggest you fight it, also. This seems very wrong to me. Talk to a lawyer about your options, and hopefully, he'll think this case is baloney, like I do.

I also think this deserves its own thread. This is a big deal, and its certainly something people should know about.

 

[usayit]

Mike A.,

Please do fight it. "Disorderly Conduct" is often a catch all used by police to gain control of a situation. It is usually dropped in court assuming no other violations were broken in process.

Good luck on your journey to recovery....

 

[VADER1775]

It absolutely is about my rights. Just because they're cops and face death in certain situations doesn't give them the right to bully anyone, especially when they are in the wrong. I'm not disrespectful to them, but I'm not going to roll over and surrender my rights as a citizen out of pity for the job they chose to do.

The job THEY chose to do is protect people like YOU who can't seem to protect themselves. Remember that police are not bullies, they are heros and you should thank your lucky stars every time you go to sleep safely in your own bed, only because there are police on your street willing to risk their lives so you can.

 

[THORHAMMER]

Just tell them you can both go to the PD front office and have them copied by the watch commander, you go away with your copy and they have theirs, then everyones happy. And the WC gets to see what the officer doesnt want him to see, actually you should DEMAND that...