Looking for advice on moving from a Amateur to Semi-Professional

[tirediron]

Can't really say that I'm a fan of that style of processing; it seems to rather over-power the subject matter. I think you could definitely have done better, even if you were restricted to that location, but than taste is all subjective...

 

[ErinP709]

I came to this forum to learn. After reading through this entire post and many others like it i can see I have come to the wrong place. I don't care how good you are

With regard to the surgeon comparison. Just last week I spent the day in the OR with an amazing pediatric orthopedic surgeon. He allowed a second year med student to scrub in and observe. By the end of the surgery the student was turning screws and pulling stitches (he had never stitched before in his life). From the get go, the experienced surgeon treated the student as an equal. When the student had questions about specific techniques and equipment the surgeon answered without hesitation. He did not tell him that it was information he should not worry about until he is more experienced. Why is it different here?

In my professional life I mentor students and others entering my field and I would never speak to them the way some of you addressed the OP. I want people to learn and to enjoy the field they are entering. If I felt they were going beyond their scope I would let them know in a constructive and encouraging way. Why on earth would you want to discourage someone from entering a field that brings you satisfaction and enjoyment?

Additionally, as an amateur photographer, I feel that there is a place for a variety of talents in the market. Right now I am gaining experience through both second shooting AND solo shooting weddings for free (or almost free). Some people can't afford high end photographers for their weddings are are very happy to have someone less experienced work for a reduced rate. Personally, I can't afford the fees that the high end photographers in my area charge. I use newbies for my family photography and have always been pleased with what comes out. I am grateful that newbies exist and are out there offering their services at a rate based on their experience level.

Anyway, that is my piece. I'm out. This is not the right place for me.

Cheers!

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

:cheers:

 

[manaheim]

Alternatively, can a qualified surgeon operate without proper tools? Can a surgeon practice and learn surgery with inadequate equipment? It goes both ways.

Not entirely. 2Wheel makes an awesome point that pretty much cuts right to the bone of the issue. (forgive the analogy) Your retort is a cute strawman, but it is a strawman.

I'd give a trained surgeon way better odds of performing a heart transplant with a spork and some rubber cement, than I would give an untrained person with all the best tools available.

Good tools allow someone who knows how to use them to perform better work, but it doesn't make a clueless person perform their work better. This is common in any field I can think of.

I am a trumpet player and have about 20 years of solid experience with it. I have a reasonably high-end (call it prosumer) Vincent Bach silver trumpet. Very nice instrument. I once sat next to a kid with a Yamaha student horn and he asked about it and about how much it cost. ($2,500) I told him and he was floored. He asked if he could try it, so we switched for the evening. I found the Yamaha to be fairly bright, somewhat brassy, but a functional instrument. With work, I could get quite a bit out of it, but it was clearly inferior. As I listened to the kid, he sounded pretty much exactly as he did before... and in some cases worse. It's not an easy instrument to play. It's heavy and trends toward being rich and sombre.

At the end of the day we switched back. I said "That's a solid horn you have there." He laughed and said "Yeah, and it only cost me $300...that $2500 thing you play doesn't sound a lick better than my Yamaha. I smiled and said, "Oh?" He complained it was tough to even get sound out of it, that all the sounds that came out of it were so dull and flat, etc. I laughed, pulled his music over and started playing his parts. I appropriately flipped around between bright and sombre, light and heavy, loud and soft.

At the end the kid looked at me funny and said, "Ok, seriously, how did you do that?"

I smiled, stood up, and said "Experience", and walked away.

Fair statement. I agree completely. I bought a T3i to begin with, not a Mark 1.... I read the reviews and it wasnt a fiscal decision.. This was my $300 trumpet to learn on, to drop on the floor, to beat the hell out of and force to its limits so I know what is important in my next purchase. Glass however is one item that extends your options. Glass does not make a photo but some photos are much harder without it. My next purchase will probably be a 50mm prime lens with a low aperture. I have the cash to burn though, and I want to buy some higher end glass. If you found me charging for anything in 5 years, I personally would be surprised. I have a ton to learn. I work in IT and like photography, there are 80% average or worse engineers, 19% good engineers, and 1% outstanding engineers. Yet they all think they are pro's as they work in the field. I would say I'm about a 5 on a scale of 1 to 100. I have a ton to learn. I also read quite a bit, remember 90%+ of what I read, and will eventually learn. I want some higher end stuff to learn on. I can produce crap with it all day long. Its part of learning. In contrast my lower end 600D can produce outstanding images, or also produce crap. The variable is me and I know that. I just need a little time to digest everything I can.

Ya good. I think we're on the same page. I actually think, after re-reading the thread, that something in the way you write came across as snarky when it really wasn't snarky at all. I noticed you said you're an IT guy. I am too. A lot of IT guys get misunderstood a lot in email and such. Might just be that.

Anyway, I get it. Peace!

 

[manaheim]

I came to this forum to learn. After reading through this entire post and many others like it i can see I have come to the wrong place. I don't care how good you are

With regard to the surgeon comparison. Just last week I spent the day in the OR with an amazing pediatric orthopedic surgeon. He allowed a second year med student to scrub in and observe. By the end of the surgery the student was turning screws and pulling stitches (he had never stitched before in his life). From the get go, the experienced surgeon treated the student as an equal. When the student had questions about specific techniques and equipment the surgeon answered without hesitation. He did not tell him that it was information he should not worry about until he is more experienced. Why is it different here?

In my professional life I mentor students and others entering my field and I would never speak to them the way some of you addressed the OP. I want people to learn and to enjoy the field they are entering. If I felt they were going beyond their scope I would let them know in a constructive and encouraging way. Why on earth would you want to discourage someone from entering a field that brings you satisfaction and enjoyment?

Additionally, as an amateur photographer, I feel that there is a place for a variety of talents in the market. Right now I am gaining experience through both second shooting AND solo shooting weddings for free (or almost free). Some people can't afford high end photographers for their weddings are are very happy to have someone less experienced work for a reduced rate. Personally, I can't afford the fees that the high end photographers in my area charge. I use newbies for my family photography and have always been pleased with what comes out. I am grateful that newbies exist and are out there offering their services at a rate based on their experience level.

Anyway, that is my piece. I'm out. This is not the right place for me.

Cheers!

There's a fair amount of opp to learn here, but if you expect to come to an internet forum and not see a whole bunch of people beating each other with their supposed manhood, yer a very confused individual.

 

[orljustin]

With regard to the surgeon comparison. Just last week I spent the day in the OR with an amazing pediatric orthopedic surgeon. He allowed a second year med student to scrub in and observe. By the end of the surgery the student was turning screws and pulling stitches (he had never stitched before in his life). From the get go, the experienced surgeon treated the student as an equal. When the student had questions about specific techniques and equipment the surgeon answered without hesitation. He did not tell him that it was information he should not worry about until he is more experienced. Why is it different here?

One might assume the two actually had a professional or educational relationship, and that the student did not randomly walk in off the street. A forum is not some Photographer Mentor/Intern experience. Your analogy is not valid to an internet forum.

In my professional life I mentor students and others entering my field and I would never speak to them the way some of you addressed the OP. I want people to learn and to enjoy the field they are entering. If I felt they were going beyond their scope I would let them know in a constructive and encouraging way. Why on earth would you want to discourage someone from entering a field that brings you satisfaction and enjoyment?

Well, you sound like a peach, but around here, there's at least 2-3 people a week who think that because they can get pictures out of the camera they got for their birthday, that they are primed for a business where they get paid to provide a satisfactory customer experience doing something that actually takes a lot of work and time to achieve a professional level.

Additionally, as an amateur photographer, I feel that there is a place for a variety of talents in the market. Right now I am gaining experience through both second shooting AND solo shooting weddings for free (or almost free). Some people can't afford high end photographers for their weddings are are very happy to have someone less experienced work for a reduced rate. Personally, I can't afford the fees that the high end photographers in my area charge. I use newbies for my family photography and have always been pleased with what comes out. I am grateful that newbies exist and are out there offering their services at a rate based on their experience level.

Wow, solo weddings for free. Maybe next year you can double your price with your new experience. See, as you mentioned, you have a "professional" life, which we can assume means you derive your income from that job. So you think it's fun and ok to go out and take work away from people who actually treat it as a business, paying taxes, updating equipment, etc. and you don't charge for it. So you wonder why people get a little testy when something like this comes up.

 

[orljustin]

http://tomward2.smugmug.com/Other/tpf/i-zG7X9tN/0/X3/Toms-Car-HDR-X3.jpgJ

Just took and reprocessed this image to see what the forum thought about a pic I put some effort and creativity into with only my front yard as a shooting location.

What was the goal? I guess it's a bit spooky, but you've smeared all the texture out of everything in the image.

 

[TomWard]

Wow, solo weddings for free. Maybe next year you can double your price with your new experience. See, as you mentioned, you have a "professional" life, which we can assume means you derive your income from that job. So you think it's fun and ok to go out and take work away from people who actually treat it as a business, paying taxes, updating equipment, etc. and you don't charge for it. So you wonder why people get a little testy when something like this comes up.

Yes, I started in tech for basically nothing. I learned and worked my way up. Its been 15 years now, my income is stable, and I need something new to learn. Wanting to learn as a 2nd or 3rd camera for free, the only benefit for me being experience and building my portfolio, is taking work away from paid professionals? If I ever get to the level where I am good enough to charge for an event, it would suppliment my primary source of income. That's to be discouraged? Improving my skill set and learning intellectually is a new skill is wrong? Perhaps you should read about how capitalism works.

The photo I posted was my first HDR, ever. The texture was purposefully smeared out in Topaz Adjust/Photomatic. I thought it looked cool. Its subjective.

 

[ErinP709]

One might assume the two actually had a professional or educational relationship, and that the student did not randomly walk in off the street. A forum is not some Photographer Mentor/Intern experience. Your analogy is not valid to an internet forum.

Nope - first time they met was when the scrub nurse introduced them a few minutes before the procedure started

Well, you sound like a peach, but around here, there's at least 2-3 people a week who think that because they can get pictures out of the camera they got for their birthday, that they are primed for a business where they get paid to provide a satisfactory customer experience doing something that actually takes a lot of work and time to achieve a professional level.

Who cares? They are not going o take business away from true professionals. There is only a small portion of the population who can dish out the kind of money that you probably charge. Everyone else will either go without or pay a small fee for an inexperienced photographer and lower quality images.

Wow, solo weddings for free. Maybe next year you can double your price with your new experience. See, as you mentioned, you have a "professional" life, which we can assume means you derive your income from that job. So you think it's fun and ok to go out and take work away from people who actually treat it as a business, paying taxes, updating equipment, etc. and you don't charge for it. So you wonder why people get a little testy when something like this comes up.

I don't take business away from anyone. I offer services to people who otherwise could not afford a photographer. I am very careful to tell them that if they were considering hiring an experienced professional they should continue with that plan because I cannot offer the same results. If you are an experienced professional, it is absolutely ridiculous for you to think that someone like me would be taking business away from you. What kind of bride would settle for a newbie when they could afford someone with a huge portfolio and oodles of experience?

It seems like you can't win around here. When people say they are going to start a business and charge they get flamed for being inexperienced. When people say they are going to gain experience by shooting for free they get flamed for taking business away from others.

I said I won't coming back but I couldn't help but take a peek at he thread.

 

[tirediron]

I don't take business away from anyone. I offer services to people who otherwise could not afford a photographer. I am very careful to tell them that if they were considering hiring an experienced professional they should continue with that plan because I cannot offer the same results. If you are an experienced professional, it is absolutely ridiculous for you to think that someone like me would be taking business away from you. What kind of bride would settle for a newbie when they could afford someone with a huge portfolio and oodles of experience?

I couldn't agree more. Granted a beginner/Craig's List shooter/Facebooker may occasionally get a gig that might otherwise have gone to a more experienced shooter, but guess what? That's free-market economics. There are other economic models... 'fellow's name escapes me... Ohhhhhhhhhhhh right, Lenin. He had a whole different take.

It seems like you can't win around here. When people say they are going to start a business and charge they get flamed for being inexperienced. When people say they are going to gain experience by shooting for free they get flamed for taking business away from others...

Again, fair comment. I do agree with those who discourage someone who has just gone out and bought a camera from shooting a wedding or other once in a lifetime event, BUTeveryone has to start somewhere. You have to gain experience by doing, but there are sometimes better ways of doing.

 

[Canon4life]

Always save your money to buy the best equipment you can the first time around. I have learned that the hard way but you are smart to ask these questions now rather than regret a purchase. As for all the heat you are taking about being inexperienced, all of these photographers who have made their way into shooting weddings and being successful at it started out somewhere too. And I would bet they've made their fair share of mistakes along the way too. We all make mistakes and you can't be afraid or having fear will hold you back and ultimately make you fail. You sound like you have an opportunity to get some experience under your belt, which is great, make the most of it...and then make the most out of you and your talent.

 

[thierry]

Ugh.. I gotta poop

 

[bennielou]

One might assume the two actually had a professional or educational relationship, and that the student did not randomly walk in off the street. A forum is not some Photographer Mentor/Intern experience. Your analogy is not valid to an internet forum.

Nope - first time they met was when the scrub nurse introduced them a few minutes before the procedure started

Well, you sound like a peach, but around here, there's at least 2-3 people a week who think that because they can get pictures out of the camera they got for their birthday, that they are primed for a business where they get paid to provide a satisfactory customer experience doing something that actually takes a lot of work and time to achieve a professional level.

Who cares? They are not going o take business away from true professionals. There is only a small portion of the population who can dish out the kind of money that you probably charge. Everyone else will either go without or pay a small fee for an inexperienced photographer and lower quality images.

Wow, solo weddings for free. Maybe next year you can double your price with your new experience. See, as you mentioned, you have a "professional" life, which we can assume means you derive your income from that job. So you think it's fun and ok to go out and take work away from people who actually treat it as a business, paying taxes, updating equipment, etc. and you don't charge for it. So you wonder why people get a little testy when something like this comes up.

I don't take business away from anyone. I offer services to people who otherwise could not afford a photographer. I am very careful to tell them that if they were considering hiring an experienced professional they should continue with that plan because I cannot offer the same results. If you are an experienced professional, it is absolutely ridiculous for you to think that someone like me would be taking business away from you. What kind of bride would settle for a newbie when they could afford someone with a huge portfolio and oodles of experience?

It seems like you can't win around here. When people say they are going to start a business and charge they get flamed for being inexperienced. When people say they are going to gain experience by shooting for free they get flamed for taking business away from others.

I said I won't coming back but I couldn't help but take a peek at he thread.

Erin, you seem like a nice person. And you are valid on some of your points. However, others are just as valid with theirs.
I guess this thread was always more of a conversation about ability rather than equipment. That's really the cruxt of the entire thread.

There is nothing wrong with the craigslist photog who is just starting out and charging little in exchange for a port. The deal is, while weddings and events have the potential to pay off big, this is not the place to start, whether or not you have the right equipment, if you don't have some real first hand, in-charge experience (as in watching a first as a second, schlepping bags, whatever).

Even a technically bad photographer can make a wedding look easy to the outsider if they fake confidence. I think that is what happened between the OP and the paid photog. He or she came in, did the job (good or bad) and made it look like easy money.

But likewise, what we don't know could fill a room.

1. What did the paid photog charge if anything? Was it a newbie TFP?
2. Did he/she handle wedding day stress well?
3. Did the bride and groom take the cheap was out?
4. I assume the b & g are fine with the photos, and if they weren't I assume they would sue.
5. Did the paid photog have all kinds of equipment?
6. Did the OP take photos over the back of the paid photographers poses?
and on and on and on........

And you are right and wrong that I don't have to deal with the craigslist photographer/or any other photographer that might screw up a once in a lifetime event. I don't deal with the front end. You are right, that I won't lose a job to a $500 photog. However, I have picked up the peices, (in the past-I stopped doing that) . I have had very upset brides and grooms come to me to ask to fix photos. I've had terrified photogs ask me to fix photos. (Those photogs got the lesson of a lifetime that free or next to free photos don't mean they can't sue you). And I used to try to fix them because I felt sorry for the couple or the photog, but I just don't anymore.

The internet is FULL of knowledge, and it is threads like this that SAVE brides and photogs, by being honest with them. I no longer feel sorry for the bride who wanted to cheap out and spend $200 on a photog while she spent, $800 on her dress, and more on her cake. I no longer feel sorry for the photographer who runs out there, with no apprenticing, no real world experience in events/weddings and screws the whole thing up because they saw a wedding or event, and it looked soooooo easy, and it looked like easy money.

But I WILL say, that if you have decent equipment, and a few weddings apprenticed under your belt (I had a year), and THEN you go out there and Craigslist............then more power to you. You are making a portfolio at that point. Not tears. (For the couple AND for you).

Go if you want, but the world is full of hard truths. It's easier to heed them here, than learn of them firsthand. While some of the posts might seem harsh, as someone who has been in business for almost a decade, and has seen just about everything, I think the posters here are actually trying to HELP.

YMMV

PS: Stick around. The truth hurts, but it also heals.

 

[ghache]

Tom,

My advice, if you are really serious about photography and plan on shooting photos for a long time, but the BEST and top of the line **** you can afford . in the long run it will pay off. Camera body? not su much. Invest in good glass and never look back. **** these turds who say there is no point of buying a 2000$ lens if you cant use it. I dont get it because it not more difficult shooting a damn 18-55mm than a 70-200 VRII. trust me ive upgraded alot of gear since i started and i should have bought the best right away. 3 year after i upgraded camera body 3 times because of limitation.I upgraded lens because i needed something faster. From F3.5 lens to 2.8 and now i am upgrading all my primes from 1.8 to 1.4 because i feel the quality of the images it produice is deffinetly better, i tried both many times. got larger softbox, grids, better strobes.

I am not saying that all that expensive gear is making my photography better because its not all about gear but it helps alot in situation when you need it.


Ottawa / Gatineau photographer, Ottawa / Gatineau portrait photographer, - Guillaume Hache Photography

 

[ErinP709]

bennielou

I guess I have a bee in my bonnet when it comes to the topic of weddings. When I got married a few years back, I paid big bucks and hired the best photographer in town. He had a huge portfolio, was well known and regularly worked with celebrities. He showed up to my wedding in dirty hiking books, ripped jean shorts and a t-shirt. He did not get any of the shots I asked for and showed up 20 minutes after the rest of us had arrived at his studio following the ceremony (it was pouring rain) with a starbucks in his hand. He made me feel like he was too good for my event. His lighting and composition were perfect but he captured nothing. A number of my friends hired an up and coming “craigs list” photographer and I envy their photos. Sure, the exposure might be off in some and there was very little processing, but she was professional in dress and behaviour, took the shots she promised and her work showed the emotion of the day. Some people regret hiring the “experienced professional” too.

I am comfortable with my approach to gaining experience. Like I said, I second shoot as well as do weddings for people who otherwise would not be able to afford photography. When I solo shoot I am very careful to prepare the couple for the fact that there might be 100 great shots or just 1. Since their alternative is no photography at all, they are always happy. It’s a win win in my book.

I appreciate your advice and I especially appreciate that you were able to express it in a constructive and respectful way.