"My Photos Are NOT OK to Edit"

[runnah]

The_traveler has a really fantastic method of helping someone with processing.
Skype. just send him a photo you want help with, get on skype with him, and you can see his computer screen on your computer screen, and with headphones and a mic he can walk you through every step he uses in Photoshop or lightroom to edit a photo, and you can see how he does it in real time.
its really cool.

Except that you have to see Lew in real time.

And nude.

That wasn't surprising, the position he was in, was.

 

[Steve5D]

Yet another wrinkle in this topic:

We don't all have the same software, so if someone uses PhotoShop, for instance, to manipulate my photo, how would I duplicate that on my somewhat lower-powered editor?

Excellent point.

How many here use Photoshop Elements 10? Well, that's what I use; it's all I need. Unless the person editing a photo of mine is also using that program, their edit may not necessarily be helpful...

 

[The_Traveler]

Yet another wrinkle in this topic:

We don't all have the same software, so if someone uses PhotoShop, for instance, to manipulate my photo, how would I duplicate that on my somewhat lower-powered editor?

It's not the actual mechanism of editing that is crucial but how one looks at the picture, chooses what to do and in what order.
My current online student/client uses Paint Shop Pro, which I know nothing about, and sends me picture in advance and I place them in a good teaching order.
While she is online, with each picture we go over what I would do and why, then do each step - usually roughly - because I don't like to spend more than an hour; there's too much too absorb.

First we talk about her intent to show, then discuss placement and composition and technical issues.
Then do some global changes and re-evaluate.

 

[The_Traveler]

Thinking of editing as a simple electro-mechanical process is very shortsighted.
There are many ways in almost infinite variety of minor settings to accomplish the same thing; the really important issue is to understand what one wants to do, to have a goal and how to plan to reach that goal.

It is important to be able to show the less experienced photographer how small changes in position, orientation, color, sharpness affect the final product.

An example of interaction actually here in this thread, my opinion was that the subject was too large in the frame.
That is a counter-intuitive idea because we are always taught to get in close and I could never have made the point without a display.

Helping without an interactive situation is like trying to teach photography over the phone.

EDIT: rather than going to the example link I left and making a comment about the quality of the cloning to discount the point, please understand that I just added substantial space to show where I thought the subject should be in the frame and how, when the subject was smaller, the pose made more impact. You may not agree with my opinion but that's what I wanted to show.

 

[jenko]

Sometimes it is just easier to show someone what you mean rather than tell them.

Having said that, I try to respect others preferences. I can understand why someone would NOT want others editing their image, especially after seeing so many butchered on here. Much of pp is related to taste. How is applying some terrible filter going to help me if I dislike filters? The best "edit" to me is one that gently corrects rather than making it an entirely different image altogether.

 

[manaheim]

Yet another wrinkle in this topic:

We don't all have the same software, so if someone uses PhotoShop, for instance, to manipulate my photo, how would I duplicate that on my somewhat lower-powered editor?

It's not the actual mechanism of editing that is crucial but how one looks at the picture, chooses what to do and in what order.
My current online student/client uses Paint Shop Pro, which I know nothing about, and sends me picture in advance and I place them in a good teaching order.
While she is online, with each picture we go over what I would do and why, then do each step - usually roughly - because I don't like to spend more than an hour; there's too much too absorb.

First we talk about her intent to show, then discuss placement and composition and technical issues.
Then do some global changes and re-evaluate.

To further emphasize the point...

The point of showing the editing result is not to show how the tools are used, but rather to show the proposed end result.

The point of the follow-up text explaining how it was done is to explain how the tools were used ... as an example.

The exact size and manner of execution of the final result by the original artist need not use the exact tools or the exact method to achieve the final result... nor need they take all the advice given to produce whatever they feel the final end result should be.

 

[Designer]

..the really important issue is to understand what one wants to do, to have a goal and how to plan to reach that goal.

So few of my photographs actually started out with a goal in mind. And the ones in which I attempted a certain outcome failed so badly that I am ashamed to show (almost) anyone. I showed one to my son who questioned everything in the shot.

 

[limr]

I reject the argument that not allowing editing is limiting. You all can yell WRONG all you want, it doesn't change the fact that the ONLY effect of this setting is whether or not you have to ask permission to edit. It says nothing about what the person believes about editing. It only says, "Please ask first."

And sorry, if someone can't even be bothered with asking, then how much does that person care about doing the edit? If someone cares that little, what am I really going to learn anyway?

For those who do not allow editing carte blanche, there are clearly reasons for them wanting control over their own process. It's also clear that they have already decided that the things they will learn from random edits is limited. Does that mean they think editing is useless? NO. It just means they don't choose that as a primary way of getting feedback.

If I WANT someone to edit, I am still free to ask for one. If I need help with my software, I can ask for it. If I don't want it or need it at the moment, then don't force it on me.

And ultimately, even if it's limiting, who cares about how I want to limit myself? Life is full of limits, whether we like it or not.

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

In a learning environment, why would you close the door to the opportunity?

 

[limr]

In a learning environment, why would you close the door to the opportunity?

A) Is this a learning environment? Are we all tasked to teach each other? Or are we just like-minded people in terms of this activity of photography that have come together to share images, ideas, and witty repartee?

B) I'm not closing any doors. I'm asking that people find out first if it's even useful to me at the moment. How much of an "opportunity" is it for ME to learn when YOU do something for me without even knowing if I want or need it?

 

[Dagwood56]

I have admittedly skipped over several pages in this thread, but wanted to offer my two cents. I don't allow my photos to be edited, because I only share photos here that I am happy with, photos that are complete, therefore I'm only seeking general comments, other people's opinions. If you don't like something, tell me and I'll take it into consideration and if I agree with the thoughts, I can make the changes the way I see fit. I've been at photography long enough to know how and when to break the rules, but many here have not and feel the rules are strict rules that can't be broken - they are the people who I don't want editing my photos. Some people learn by seeing, others learn by written word, other by a combination of the two and frankly, when I see someone post an edit of someones photo with a list of what they did to it, but no actual explanation as to how they did it, I don't see that as being of much help to a person. If you plan to do an edit of a photo, then you should also provide a step by step written or visual explanation as to how you did it.

 

[The_Traveler]

In a learning environment, why would you close the door to the opportunity?

A) Is this a learning environment? Are we all tasked to teach each other? Or are we just like-minded people in terms of this activity of photography that have come together to share images, ideas, and witty repartee?

B) I'm not closing any doors. I'm asking that people find out first if it's even useful to me at the moment. How much of an "opportunity" is it for ME to learn when YOU do something for me without even knowing if I want or need it?

Leonore,

I think you are looking at the wrong end of the issue.

The point that I, and most of the others, seem to be making is that allowing editing is a much better way to get help, more illuminating and more useful.
We are trying to convince people who don't allow it, to allow it without putting the viewers over any extra hurdles.

There are people at different levels and many people come here specifically for help.
My attitude is that, if someone needs and wants help, then it's my choice how best to give it and, if the person doesn't want it in the manner I would chose to give it, I walk away.

Interestingly, film-shooters have the least to gain from editing help. Most of the decisions have been made by the time that the image is seen and, in my opinion, the bar for an OK image using film is set lower than digital just because viewers recognize that film is harder.

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

A) Is this a learning environment? Are we all tasked to teach each other? Or are we just like-minded people in terms of this activity of photography that have come together to share images, ideas, and witty repartee?

If you are posting for critique, this is a learning environment.
Not just for you, but for others following along. Don't forget that others viewing are getting an opportunity to learn from discussion of your image. It's a shared experience that benefits more than just you. It benefits the community.

B) I'm not closing any doors. I'm asking that people find out first if it's even useful to me at the moment. How much of an "opportunity" is it for ME to learn when YOU do something for me without even knowing if I want or need it?

I've learned more stuff when I wasn't looking for feedback, or when I thought I didn't "need" it.
So yeah, the "opportunity" is ALWAYS there. And you ARE closing doors.

That's fine. It's your choice. You are free to limit yourself.

You don't know what you don't know, until you know it.

 

[pixmedic]

The_traveler has a really fantastic method of helping someone with processing.
Skype. just send him a photo you want help with, get on skype with him, and you can see his computer screen on your computer screen, and with headphones and a mic he can walk you through every step he uses in Photoshop or lightroom to edit a photo, and you can see how he does it in real time.
its really cool.

Except that you have to see Lew in real time.

amazingly enough,
just like Steve5D, Lew is incredibly charming in person.

dont let their (sometimes) grumpy internet persona fool you.

 

[limr]

In a learning environment, why would you close the door to the opportunity?

A) Is this a learning environment? Are we all tasked to teach each other? Or are we just like-minded people in terms of this activity of photography that have come together to share images, ideas, and witty repartee?

B) I'm not closing any doors. I'm asking that people find out first if it's even useful to me at the moment. How much of an "opportunity" is it for ME to learn when YOU do something for me without even knowing if I want or need it?

Leonore,

I think you are looking at the wrong end of the issue.

The point that I, and most of the others, seem to be making is that allowing editing is a much better way to get help, more illuminating and more useful.
We are trying to convince people who don't allow it, to allow it without putting the viewers over any extra hurdles.

The problem is that YOU (the editor) are making the decision about what is "better," not the person asking for help. Don't we get the option to say, "I appreciate that you like to show things through edits, but I'd rather have a different form of feedback right now."

THIS is my main issue with the whole argument, the whole "We know what's best for you better than you know yourself" attitude.

There are people at different levels and many people come here specifically for help.
My attitude is that, if someone needs and wants help, then it's my choice how best to give it and, if the person doesn't want it in the manner I would chose to give it, I walk away.

So walk away - what's wrong with that? If someone has missed out on what you feel was an opportunity, then it's that person's problem, not yours.

Yes, it's your choice to give help in the way you want to give it, but you're again assuming that your best way of giving help is also the other person's best way of receiving help. That's not always true. So really, who's limited in that situation? Both of you are: you for having such a strong preference about how you offer help, and the other person for having a preference that doesn't fit yours. So are you supposed to change how you offer help. NO. Let me say that again because I don't want it to get lost or misinterpreted. NO, you shouldn't have to be forced to give help in a way that is not comfortable to you. This is a forum, not a classroom, and it's not your job to go research different teaching methods. But neither should the other person be required to change their learning preference to fit your style of help.

Yes, there are people at different levels, and some might need more help than others or ASK for help more than others. But can't they still make their own decisions about how they want to learn? I understand the suggestion that people might want to allow editing, but what I don't understand is this insistence that it is ALWAYS the best way and that we all should be open to it, whether we like it or not.

Interestingly, film-shooters have the least to gain from editing help. Most of the decisions have been made by the time that the image is seen and, in my opinion, the bar for an OK image using film is set lower than digital just because viewers recognize that film is harder.

Not touching this one.