New Nikon flash? Advice on flashes? SB700 or SB900?

Nikon_Josh · Jul 15, 2011

Another question guys,

I just did my second natural light portrait photoshoot last week, that I completely enjoyed! Now, I'm thinking its time to enter the world of Flash!

I would love to do some creative effects with a single flash gun on portraits.. I know alot of people seem to say you need about three flash guns to get effective results. But I have a feeling this is a myth being spread around by 'gear heads'?? I do plan on getting more than one flash in the future though.

I plan on using this flash on camera to begin with, making use of the swivel head to bounce the light. Do I need the extra features of an SB900 or will a SB700 suit me fine??

I'm using a Nikon D90 BTW. I plan on getting a 85mm 1.8 in the future aswell, will the SB700 be adequate for this? I know the 85 is a 128 on a DX camera.

I notice in the UK, the prices are not hugely different. Which I find a bit baffling!

KmH · Jul 16, 2011

Look at the lens coverage range in the specs of the SB-700 to see if it can zoom to 85 mm. SB-700 AF Speedlight from Nikon

Bounced light can be problematic for a number of reasons:

The reflected light takes on the color of the surface it is bounced off of.
The light path length is effectively doubled necessitating a higher power setting, quicker depletion of the batterries, and longer recycle times. (see the Inverse Square Law)
Because bounced light comes from above dark eye sockets are common (raccoon eyes).

jake337 · Jul 16, 2011

sb700 and sb900 are two different animals. Go check them out. Size difference is quite big.

jaymitch · Aug 6, 2011

Jake is right these are two totally different flashes. I have 2-700's and love them. I used a 900 for a couple weeks and while it is a very powerful great flash, it was too heavy and bulky for my liking. I use my 700's for both on and off camera lighting and have always been nothing but happy with the results. I would really check out all of the features they both offer and if you have the option try testing out both.

Derrel · Aug 6, 2011

For OFF-camera flashes, I think modern, dedicated, TTL units are largely a waste of money. I think more-basic, manual control flashes like the Vivitar 285HV, make much greater economic sense. Why spend $1200 to buy three "fancy" speedlights, when you can spend $210 on three 285HV units, and then another $60 or so for slaves or triggers??? Also, yes, three separate flash units really "ups" the control and variety that's possible when setting up a flash lighting scheme. Three flashes is actually not enough for many uses. Three is just Main, Fill, and Background. Many times it is nice to have a second background light, or a separation light, or to be able to use twice as much light on the subject, by using two flashes slaved or wired together with a short, seven-inch PC connector cord. It's even feasible to rig up a motlety Good Will or pawn shop assortment of miscellaneous cheap flash units, so that you have some small, two-battery ones for use as accent lights or whatever.

nickzou · Aug 6, 2011

Derrel said:
For OFF-camera flashes, I think modern, dedicated, TTL units are largely a waste of money. I think more-basic, manual control flashes like the Vivitar 285HV, make much greater economic sense. Why spend $1200 to buy three "fancy" speedlights, when you can spend $210 on three 285HV units, and then another $60 or so for slaves or triggers??? Also, yes, three separate flash units really "ups" the control and variety that's possible when setting up a flash lighting scheme. Three flashes is actually not enough for many uses. Three is just Main, Fill, and Background. Many times it is nice to have a second background light, or a separation light, or to be able to use twice as much light on the subject, by using two flashes slaved or wired together with a short, seven-inch PC connector cord. It's even feasible to rig up a motlety Good Will or pawn shop assortment of miscellaneous cheap flash units, so that you have some small, two-battery ones for use as accent lights or whatever.

I don't know enough about speedlights yet, but I've been meaning to get one and this is music to my ears (since I don't want to spend a lot). I looked up the model you suggested and holy moly is it cheaper than the SB-600 that I was planning on getting.

IgsEMT · Aug 6, 2011

SB600 is a wonderful piece of gear, probably better then sb700, but just like nearly everything else w/ Nikon and Canon (go try to find it w/o cleaning the bank account). TTL, I find, does pretty good job on Nikon (depending on the metering and necessary adjustments) when ON camera but isn't very consistent when off-camera.

Nikon_Josh · Aug 6, 2011

This is a bit of revelation. So the cheap flashes can hold a candle to the mighty Nikon SB's? (Pardon the pun) If set up correctly, I guess my only fear is as a complete flash amateur. Whether or not, I will find it easy to do it this way.

I'm actually quite a technical person, but flash is completely unknown to me. It always looks complex, but I'm sure it isn't when you learn it! I sometimes feel natural light is better anyway for portraits, if you have the daylight for it. But I guess at night and inside flash is a necessity?

I really don't like the photos where it's obvious flash has been used when shooting outdoors. I feel sometimes a completely shadowless portrait can look artificial. But I was throwing this question out there, as I know I need to learn it to become a versatile portrait photographer (seeing as this is my dream career path). And I love to experiment!

KmH · Aug 6, 2011

For portraiture, the light is usually modified.

Speedlights, the Sun, and even studio strobes are apparently small light sources.
Making the light source apparently larger not only softens the quality of the light but also lets it 'wrap' better making shadow edges softer and more flattering too.

Like I mentioned in another thread; "E-TTIL is 5 times more complex, and less consistant than just doing manual flash, because you've now added a camera and some electronics instead of your eye, and programming some committe of Japanese camera software engineers wrote that is chock full of guesses about WTF it is you're trying to accomplish while making a strobed light image of something they knew nothing about when they wrote the programs."

Tinstafl · Aug 7, 2011

Nikon_Josh said:
Another question guys,

I just did my second natural light portrait photoshoot last week, that I completely enjoyed! Now, I'm thinking its time to enter the world of Flash!

I would love to do some creative effects with a single flash gun on portraits.. I know alot of people seem to say you need about three flash guns to get effective results. But I have a feeling this is a myth being spread around by 'gear heads'?? I do plan on getting more than one flash in the future though.

Wow, if you think it is only gear heads, you are in for a surprise and you flash work will show it. Right now you have a large light source, the sun. It can be hard or soft depending on the time of the day. If you use flashes you do not have to worry about the time of day inside an outside you can augment or even over power the sun. But the reason most say that you need three sources is simple. You need a main and you need a fill. You can get by with a reflector for fill though. You will need a background light too. SO you can get by with two lights and a reflector. Then again if you want to shoot on location you might need five or more lights. In my studio have have four lights and many reflectors and flags and gobos. I am going to get at least one more light. Why is simple, you see a shot you want to make but you need to light it. You have hair lights, rim lights, you have main you have fill and if you ever want to shoot a group of people then you will be taxed especially if you have them multi rows deep. Think a kids baseball team.... You have to have even light from the first to the last row...

But really, three lights is the min. you will need to handle most things. You can get by with two but you will be limited.

As to lights, I would not go with the SBs, I have them and have too many of them. I use the studio lights and they are much better. Not always strength but you can shoot all day with a studio light and you have a modeling light to allow you to see what you are getting. It is hard to learn lighting if you can not see the light.

I know a lot of people like Alien B and Ensteins but I chose to go with Elinchrom as I felt it came with its own radio trigger and it was a system I could grow with and many of the modifiers made by other companies support them so getting top of the line or budget is not a problem and the heads did not cost that much more and they are very consistent WB and they are fast lights too. Meaning they have a short duration flash. As you lower the power on many cheaper units the duration increases.

So, you are entering a whole new world and one that will give you great results but you will have to learn it just like you learn your cameras and in many cases you will be spending more on modifiers and lights than you will be on your bodies but they should last a lifetime of shooting.

You will be surprised what you can do with one light but you will also learn what big and soft means too.

You can get a big octa and have a model stand in front of it and shoot right at them and you will have the light to their back and the light will wrap around to their front and you can see their face.... you put a reflector and you have a nice picture.

But the level of complexity and TTL means that the camera and the flash are both adjusting and you will not be able to repeat things as well. Sure the CLS system works ok and is very simple to get ok shots but if you want something different than grey snow, remember the camera wants to turn white into an 18 percent grey, you will have to go manual or know how much to increase the output. Then there is the meter. You can do it with out a meter but it is much harder. To know your fill is two stops less than the main and the background is two stops brighter than the main means the shot will come out like you want it. You can run across the background and find the areas that it is not the same brightness and aim your flash or add another or change the shooting position. You will learn to live by your meter.

As to on camera, get it off the camera. You can shoot in a pinch on camera but it looks on camera and you will get very flat lighting.
Depending on your nikon you can use the SB 600 -900 as off camera and you can use your camera as the commander. That is where the CLS shines in a pinch. I was out shooting and the light was going faster than I was finishing and we all had a couple of flashes but I had not planned on using them so I used my D700 as commander and set up two flash units and pulled the shutter down and and pumped the ISO and kept some background in the shot and made the model pop.. It was easy and fast and down and dirty but would I have done that to start if I had planned no. Knowing how to do it in a pinch is great.

Tinstafl · Aug 7, 2011

Here is the shot I was talking about. It was almost dark by the time I finished up this shot. Adding two speed lights let me capture it still and have some of the background green showing thru. I have the same shot with a black background and I like it with green better.

Nikon_Josh · Aug 9, 2011

Thanks very much Tinstafl for a very informative reply, I understand that obviously if you don't have background flash, you will not get any light to the background so it will become darker.. and fill flash is to fill in the gaps.

Have to say I still feel a bit hesitant about flash being used when daylight is around us, just due to the fact I don't really care for daytime images that look as if flash has been used. It just takes away the natural atmosphere and feel of the image for me, I still feel I would mainly use flash for darkened conditions or inside.

Am I being naive in saying this? I mean the 'only' reason I say 'gearheads' is because there is a photographer on Flickr called Ryan Brenzier who is a fantastic photog, who has created some beautiful non artificial looking images simply using just an 'Ipad' as a light source, surely if something like an 'ipad' can be adequate. One flash can be put to creative use?

Dao · Aug 9, 2011

If you know how to use the flash, the result may not looks like a flashed photo. Take a look at the link below.

http://neilvn.com/tangents/flash-photography-techniques/1-natural-looking-flash/

Nikon_Josh · Aug 9, 2011

Dao said:
If you know how to use the flash, the result may not looks like a flashed photo. Take a look at the link below.

http://neilvn.com/tangents/flash-photography-techniques/1-natural-looking-flash/

WOW! Yes I can see what you mean, these samples look completely natural. Don't even look as if flash has been used!

This confirms the question I was asking, he has only used one flash here and bounced it. Clearly the technique takes mastering, but it proves to me effective results can be created using a single flash. Three not being necessary for every shot.