new Olympus Micro 4/3rds announced.

[fast1]

I found prices for the UK (from www.warehouseexpress.com):

E-P1 + 14-42mm f/3.5-5.6 £699
E-P1 + 17mm f/2.8 £749
E-P1 + both lenses £849

A bit pricey...:meh:

i agree, seems a little overpriced

 

[usayit]

According to Canon the 1D had an electronic shutter.

By electronic shutter, I do not mean that the speed of the shutter is controlled electronically as the Canon website suggests. What I mean is that there is no "physical" shutter at all. The shutter itself has no physical moving parts but done within the CCD. The image you included clearly indicates a "Vertical Focal-Plane Shutter" which means there is still a physical shutter. Dpreview's 1D review has a picture of the shutter mechanism which they mentioned is a borrow from the 1V film body. I used to own a 1D and you can physically see the shutter opening and closing.

I'm still missing what's new from this new camera. I'm probably just being dense, but can you highlight the "truly" new technologies that differ from other cameras on the market?

You are confusing new technologies with new designs and concepts. For example, each and every DSLR on the market has a mirror box which is a throwback from old film camera days. These new cameras are bringing to market a camera design that diverges away from the limitations of a system built on film cameras. There isn't a camera that implements:

* Short film flange distance
* Compact design by not using a prism and mirror box
* larger than P&S sized sensor
* interchangeable lenses with Autofocus
* (Hopefully) better than consumer P&S performance and image quality.

all in one complete package.

Another example. There is nothing new about batteries, cars, nor electric engines, nor gas engines. Toyota brought all those pre-existing technologies, inserted their own design, and released the innovative Prius. These are all old technologies but brought to the consumer market packaged in a very innovative design.

 

[Dwig]

...I'm still missing what's new from this new camera. I'm probably just being dense, ...

I have to agree with you.

The concept that you seem to be missing is that a new product can be interesting and important without having something completely new.

What is "new" in the D-P1 is the combination of features, not any one of the features. It has a "standard" size sensor (not thumbnail digicam size and not big "full frame" size), no bulky reflex finder or EEVF (Eyelevel Electronic View Finder), no OVF that is either functions poorly (G-10, LX-3, ...) or is extremely expensive (Leica M8), and interchangable lenses. Its the most pocketable interchangble lens digital camera to date.

 

[inTempus]

By electronic shutter, I do not mean that the speed of the shutter is controlled electronically as the Canon website suggests. What I mean is that there is no "physical" shutter at all. The shutter itself has no physical moving parts but done within the CCD. The image you included clearly indicates a "Vertical Focal-Plane Shutter" which means there is still a physical shutter. Dpreview's 1D review has a picture of the shutter mechanism which they mentioned is a borrow from the 1V film body. I used to own a 1D and you can physically see the shutter opening and closing.

You're only getting half of it. It has both. When it's syncing at 1/500 it's not using its mechanical shutter. If you read the specs carefully, you will see it has both an electronic CCD shutter and a mechanical shutter for things like blub mode. There is no way a mechanical shutter is moving fast enough at 1/500 to avoid being caught by the flash passing the sensor.

Right from Canon's website:

Feature 13: Ultra-fast electronic shutter with 1/16,000 sec. maximum and X-sync at 1/500 sec. The EOS-1D uses the electronic shutter integral to the CCD sensor together with the vertical-travel, focal-plane shutter (see Photo 1) controlled by rotary magnets. All shutter speeds, from 30 sec. to 1/16,000 seconds are controlled by electronic charge accumulation ON/OFF switching of the image sensor (the focal-plane shutter is fully opened immediately before the electric charge accumulation and closed immediately after completion at maximum speed of 1/125 sec.). The focal-plane shutter covers and protects the CCD sensor during standby, and controls the length of bulb exposures.

Photo1 Shutter unit The X-sync speed of 1/500 sec. is also controlled by the duration of electric charge accumulation of the image sensor after the focal-plane shutter is fully opened. Flash sync uses an electronic X-contact that is more reliable than a mechanical one. The focal-plane shutter, designed around the EOS-3 shutter unit, eliminates the high-speed shutter control elements to slow down the shutter speed to reduce mechanical load, achieving a durability of 150,000 shutter-release cycles.

Technical Hall - Technical report 2001.12

 

[Garbz]

You are both talking about the same thing. Usayit while Canon 1D does have a physical shutter, it isn't used to stop the exposure above it's sync speed. Only up to the sync speed, after which it uses an electronic shuttering principle to read out the sensor. But this is beside the point. What really interested me more is your earlier question:

Do we really need a physical shutter?

In one word, Yes. In more words there is a reason only lower end cameras (P&S, D40, D70), and cameras which existed very early in the DSLR development (1D) have electronic viewfinders. CCDs suffer from blooming effect where by the quality of the results drops when light hits the sensor during read out. It is possible that so much light can hit it that artefacts actually form on the image which leads to a lot of people photographing a sunset assuming their camera was in some way broken.

Reading out CMOS sensors is an entirely different beast. While they don't suffer from bloom, doing it is an engineering feat in it's own right. As of late last year there was only a handful of CMOS sensors with a "global shutter" as it's called and they were in lab equipment where the very small low megapixel sensor easily cost more than a top of the line DSLR.

So don't hold your breath on this feature, but hey physical shutters are small, flat, and add probably a cm in each direction to the size of the camera.

 

[usayit]

Ah.. I stand corrected.. (In regards to the 1D and electronic shutter) but it is a clear example of how the physical shutter is redundant throwback from film camera days. I've seen enough people say "it isn't possible" to only be proven wrong once technology catches up a few years down the road.

Tharmsen's view is that there is nothing new about these cameras. My point is that he is missing the point that these cameras are a sign of what is to come. Thamsen asked what is new about these cameras.... I listed a few features all contained in a single package. These are designs and features not offered as a whole single package in any other camera which all borrow from the past. The advancement in digital cameras have been a very boring story... more megapixels etc.. The overall design remains unchanged. These are early examples of advanced cameras that are a ground up design in digital.

Garbz,

There is more to shutters than the minute addition of size to the camera. I'm coming from horizontal cloth shutter cameras. In comparison, these vertical shutters are very loud. They also have severe limit to max X-sync shutter speeds without sucking the power and efficiency from high syncing strobes. In terms of size, every little bit counts...

 

[Garbz]

Yeah but as you said with Electronic View Finders we're simply not there yet. The loud shutter is still a requirement for exceptionally sharp and rich images from a digital sensor. The optical viewfinder that gives a view without parallax error which is still superior to EVF still requires the mirror box.

I agree with you that a paradigm shift is in the works, just that making a digital rangefinder is a baby step, not a revolution. Nothing in this camera design couldn't have been done in film.

 

[Dwig]

...Nothing in this camera design couldn't have been done in film.

Not without an optical reflex finder!

The closest to the E-P1 ever achieved in a film camera was the Olympus Pen FT. The E-P1's finder is quite a bit more accurate and the camera is smaller. The finder in the Pen FT was adequate, but not up to the standards of the day, much less those of the likes of a Nikon F3/HP.

 

[usayit]

and the obvious that film is not digital <I'm being facetious>

The closest are the Leica M8 and Epson R-D1 which are both rangefinders and not very appealing to the mass market. btw.. I'm not looking for a rebirth of the rangefinder (even though I like em). I'm looking for a digital camera made as a digital camera... so far RED is bringing the most interesting story to market.

 

[usayit]

So my local camera shop has one in stock and was nice enough to let me handle it. I am not claiming this to be a review of any sorts, just my initial thoughts from the 10 mins I had it in my hands. I also didn't have a card with me (on my way home from work) so I didn't get a chance to get samples to examine. I also got some additional time with the Panasonic G1 that I've been eyeing as well as a comparison.

As much as I want to like the camera, I just can't get into it.
* The camera felt solid and it is a very attractive design. It has a very retro look to it. It isn't much smaller than my rangefinders.
* I didn't like how you had to manually extend the lens before use.. It slowed me down A LOT. The panasonic kit lens doesn't require to manually extend the lens and it is just a tiny bit longer.. big deal. P&S cameras that electronically extend the lens are faster.
* The AF seemed a little slower than the pansonic G1.
* The fixed LCD has a wide viewing angle but just isn't a replacement to the swing out LCD of the panasonic G1. My Canon G5 has a similar design and I like it.. one of the features I wish continued into Canon's current G-series cameras.
* The LCD display is noticably lower resolution than the G1. Someone mentioned it is like the difference between a normal resolution TV versus HD. Both will work but HD is so much nicer. I agree.
* BIG DEAL BREAKER: I tried and tried. I just prefer an eye-level viewer. I cannot get used to holding the camera at arms length to compose a picture. The G1 automatically switches between the eye-level viewer and the LCD panel. It is very fluid and slick.

Since the first mock up at photokina, I have been so excited but I just can't help feel the E-P1 was designed more by Olympus' P&S division (they have good P&S cameras btw) rather than lead by their DSLR division. As a high end P&S, this seems to be one very good competitor. I am still excited over the new m4/3rd design but there are just too many things about this Olympus E-P1 that doesn't fit me. I also don't like how both Panasonic and Olympus are not releasing a line of lenses (fast primes!) along with the new format. After all, a system is lead by the lenses not by the camera bodies.

For me, I will probably eventually go with the Panasonic G1 (used as always). I really do like the camera... it is very slick and feels nice. It serves well as a compact backup to those DSLR users who don't like P&S. In my case, a replacement for my aging Canon G5. It serves as a neat adaptable system for people who like old manual lenses (my m-mounts, K-mounts, M42).

For those coming in from the other end of the spectrum (P&S considering higher end), the Olympus would be a nice option. Better IQ and AF with a familiar P&S feel to it. Those in this corner would probably also consider the Canon G10 and Pansonic LX3. My personal choice in this arena would be the LX3.

 

[usayit]

I just noticed that Olympus chose sensor-shift IS while Panasonic chose in-lines IS for their respective cameras. Does anyone know if this will introduce some sort of compatibility problem between Olympus M4/3rd lenses and Panasonic??? It would be awsome to use the Olympus 17mm lens on the Panasonic G1.

btw... the camera shop had a used M6 classic in black with a 50mm f/2 summicron for $1899. WOW have film camera prices dropped... even for Leica.

 

[Iron Flatline]

I've held one. I'm getting one.

 

[soylentgreen]

I just placed my order today for the E-P1. Can't wait to see what it can do. The lack of the optical viewfinder is a bit of a concern, but in all honesty, I rarely used the one on the G10. The LCD resolution is not a big deal for me as long as it is clear and shows the info that I need. What is disheartening is the lack of a built-in flash! Yeah, they are under powered, but is handy in that you do not have to tote around extra gear or spend even more money. Olympus finally put a $100 rebate on the E-P1 flash unit.