On Axis fill light, ring light vs parabolic

dsiglin · Feb 17, 2014

Hey guys, I'm going to be shooting a series of portraits in a few weeks and am contemplating buying a second flash to compliment my shoot through white umbrella and flash. I like the look of on axis fill when combined with a typical 45 degree high camera right flash. I'm wondering if anyone could explain the advantages of using a ring light as a fill vs using a parabolic umbrella (paul buff PLM)? Seems like you can use both to get nice shadowless portraits. I think the PLM would offer more flexibility for various situations. Just curious what your thoughts are, thanks.

tirediron · Feb 17, 2014

I've never really thought of using a ring light as a fil light; to me they're more of a key for certain types of fashion work. I would definitely go with the brolly.

KmH · Feb 17, 2014

Technically (or maybe classically), fill light can only be on the lens axis.
Any light that's not the main light that is off the lens axis is a second or special purpose light (kicker, rim, hair, etc).

A ring light delivers harsher light than a larger modifier of any type will.
So other than a hard look to the light I don't see any advantage of using a ring light for fill.

Like John alludes to, ring lights are of limited use because of their shape and relatively small size.

dsiglin · Feb 17, 2014

Ok sounds like it's really a no brainer for the PLM then. Right now I'm shooting mostly fill light from a window and a shoot through umbrella for fill light often high right of the camera.

I do have one other question, I've been using flash guns and was planning on using a flash gun with the PLM. I've read that flash guns are about 50ws. I've been pondering whether to buy a 300ws studio strobe, however I don't have a studio so I would be shooting on location often outside without access to AC power. I could buy a power pack but I'm hesitant to drop $700 or more (strobe + power pack) on a hobby that is just starting to make a little money. If shooting in open shade on a sunny day am I going to be finding myself yearning for more power if I use just a Yn560 with the PLM?

Adorama has a fairly cheap 300ws Flashpoint strobe but I'm not sure I can use that with the PLM from Paull Buff, and I'm not sure how the quality is. Really cheap stuff is cheap for a reason.

Mach0 · Feb 17, 2014

dsiglin said:
Ok sounds like it's really a no brainer for the PLM then. Right now I'm shooting mostly fill light from a window and a shoot through umbrella for fill light often high right of the camera. I do have one other question, I've been using flash guns and was planning on using a flash gun with the PLM. I've read that flash guns are about 50ws. I've been pondering whether to buy a 300ws studio strobe, however I don't have a studio so I would be shooting on location often outside without access to AC power. I could buy a power pack but I'm hesitant to drop $700 or more (strobe + power pack) on a hobby that is just starting to make a little money. If shooting in open shade on a sunny day am I going to be finding myself yearning for more power if I use just a Yn560 with the PLM? Adorama has a fairly cheap 300ws Flashpoint strobe but I'm not sure I can use that with the PLM from Paull Buff, and I'm not sure how the quality is. Really cheap stuff is cheap for a reason.

They are actually pretty good and easy to use

Derrel · Feb 17, 2014

Some of the best comparisons and testing of the PLM umbrellas that I have happened to read, was done by Rob Galbraith, in 2009 and 2011. One thing I remember from ROb's tests was his comparisons of the PLM both with and without the special "sideways" speedlight mount that buff introduced; the special mount REALLY boosted the flash output as opposed to using the PLM with just a standard, non-Buff umbrella swivel mount.

Rob Galbraith + Paul C. Buff PLM - Google Search

dsiglin · Feb 18, 2014

ok the difference between vertical and horizontal is impressive.

Do you guys have any experience with the 86" and 64" PLM? Obviously everyone thinks bigger is better (or at least softer) but I'm afraid one flash gun will not perform well with an 86" reflector. Well that and the size is huge. At most I'll be taking photos of 3 people in a group, most often 2 or 1. Will the 64" be able to cast soft light on 3 people or is the 86" needed?

tirediron · Feb 18, 2014

Not with the PLM specifically, but I use a 60" PLM-like brolly-box regularily for couples photography and it works very well. The 86" I suspect might be a bit of over-kill. As for driving big modifiers with speedlights, don't believe all you hear. This image is a single SB800 (at 1/4 power IIRC) driving a 50" soft-box.

Derrel · Feb 18, 2014

I think this video, Umbrellas 101, narrated by Jay P. Morgan, and showing umbrella lighting patterns as cast on a huge studio wall painted with a large, graduated crosshair target, is WELL worth watching for anybody who wants to see how umbrellas cast their light, and how much fall-off there is with various types of umbrellas. One of the issues with parabolic umbrellas is that they tend to have a lot of light fall-off at the edges of their beam, as much as a full f/stop of light loss at 6 feet from the center of the light's beam.

This video also puts to rest an often-repeated on-line myth, that a small umbrella can not cover a large area; in fact, a small, 30-inch umbrella covers as large an area as a seven-footer, and in fact, MANY smallish umbrellas, like 30 to 45 inch models, cover a 12 foot wide swath (center, then six feet on each side!!!) MORE-evenly than do larger parabolic umbrellas. Of course, large sources are "softer", and less-specular, but their fall-off is often more significant than the average 30- to 45-inch diameter umbrella.

As to the big parabolics: I bought A Westcott 7-foot silver parabolic, a fiberglass-ribbed, 16-rib model, with a black backing in late December. All I can say is, wow, what a pain in the ass this thing is. It is so flipping BIG that, well...it's BIG. So,so,so damned big...

dsiglin · Feb 18, 2014

After watching that video it's clear I need to watch it a few more times and the other lighting videos he has. I'm the kind of person that would rather get out and experiment, but that means buying equipment and learning the hard way what does and doesn't work.

Watching videos at least will help me know more what equipment, if any, I need.

I am finding myself wishing I had more control over the direction of the light. I am using a white umbrella with a removable black backing. Putting the backing on and using it as a reflected umbrella lets me narrow the beam some. I was hoping with the parabolic umbrella to get a more focused beam and use the white shoot through as a softer ambient light. I wonder though if I would be better served with an octobox?

Derrel · Feb 18, 2014

dsiglin said:
After watching that video it's clear I need to watch it a few more times and the other lighting videos he has. I'm the kind of person that would rather get out and experiment, but that means buying equipment and learning the hard way what does and doesn't work. Watching videos at least will help me know more what equipment, if any, I need.

I am finding myself wishing I had more control over the direction of the light. I am using a white umbrella with a removable black backing. Putting the backing on and using it as a reflected umbrella lets me narrow the beam some. I was hoping with the parabolic umbrella to get a more focused beam and use the white shoot through as a softer ambient light. I wonder though if I would be better served with an octobox?

He has some good lighting videos. One of the weirdest things about Jay is that he delivers his dialogue very FAST!!! He has one lighting video where he uses a single light source, and mirrors and reflectors, and he talks his way through it soooooo fast it's like he's on speed or something! But Umbrellas 101 SHOWS people a lot of umbrellas from the Photoflex line, and shows their lighting "pattern" or "beam characteristic" on that big target, which has sort of become the new "advanced way" to illustrate light modifier behavior in a controlled, easily-comprehended way. Rob's article also compares the Photoflex white 72" reflecting umbrella against the PLM for those huge group photos, and the PLM does have a much higher OUTPUT level than his former standard, the 72" Photoflex white reflecting umbrella.

I don't own any octoboxes, so I can't help you on that. One source of "soft" light I like are the enclosed umbrella boxes, made by Lastolite. Photek also makes its Softlighter II, and Steve Kaeser Enterprises (web dealer since well, forever!) sells knock-off enclosed umbrella boxes. These diffuse the light once, on the umbrella's curved inner surface, then take that light and diffuse it a second time, through the white nylon front fabric; The result is a fairly directional, yet soft, diffused light source. I REALLY like this type of light modifier, the enclosed WHITE reflecting umbrella with front diffusion panel. The Softlighter is a 10-rib, fairly rounded umbrella. Annie Liebovitz uses them on most of her shoots, so you can see how they look in a number of places where her pics are run.

On the BIG, 7-footers...Lou Freeman did a 3-day Creative Live demo, using CANON 600 RT speedlights to drive those monster umbrellas...

dsiglin · Feb 18, 2014

Yes, I watched that single light source video, very informative. I should probably get a reflector holding stand.

Funny you mention those umbrellas, before reading your reply I had just stumbled across these which are the Steve Kaeser ones I think. I'm contemplating a boom arm for my second light stand so I can take the light above the subject(s).

Derrel · Feb 18, 2014

dsiglin said:
Yes, I watched that single light source video, very informative. I should probably get a reflector holding stand.

Funny you mention those umbrellas, before reading your reply I had just stumbled across these which are the Steve Kaeser ones I think. I'm contemplating a boom arm for my second light stand so I can take the light above the subject(s).

YES, dsiglin, those are the exact ones! And, I mean sheesh, for under $33 for a PAIR of 42-inchers!!! When I bought mine, it was seven years ago, and they were I think $27.99 for the pair! They have held up well too. I actually prefer the drawstring closure to the three-way zipper closure system that Lastolite uses. I think these are a really good value product.

dsiglin · Feb 18, 2014

Great! now I just need to find a boom arm and I'll be done.

dsiglin · Feb 19, 2014

Oh btw, you had mentioned laying the flash horizontal, just stumbled across a RF shield for canon flashes that holds the flash horizontal. It's about $37 but the cool thing is it has a umbrella holder with it letting you keep the umbrella perpendicular to the flash easily.