POINT OF VIEWS ""

[zendianah]

First off.. Like the first picture. Could be a greeting card.. Gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling,

2nd - ( On MaxBloom) I had a teacher in Art school that only graded us with an A or an F. NO in between. He would make us stand in the middle of the classroom and ask us what we thought of our art. He then preceded VERY bluntly to tell us.. I want you to throw that piece of **** in the trash. F. He did this to me once. Next critique. He praised and it is now hanging at the college art gallery and is still there. YES it is one mans opinion. My teacher had no tact... nor was he liked by the students. I respected him and became a better painter because I didnt want the pat on the back, I wanted and still do.. honest critique... So what Max.. says it the way he does. Thats Max. Thats only his opinion. I sometimes PM Max so that he can give me a critique if he hasn't done so. He will tell me dead on... Thats boring. OR its been done.. OR thats a bad.,.. whatever he says. But then there are times.. only once.. that he said it was a good. That means more to me because I know hes not blowing smoke up my butt.

I'm sure no one is reading this.... but thats my 5 min. rant.

 

[Puscas]

Zendianah, I read it... And I know what you're saying, but I think that being rude is not the same as being honest or even tough. And if being rude gets in the way of getting your message across, there may be reason to change course.

but hey, let's talk pictures:
I agree with Max on the second picture: it's too busy. What were you going for? The 'hidden' feeling?
The first one I like: the way the black lines (trees, fence) lead to (or from) the shed. Well done.





pascal

 

[Moe Sizlack]

As far as critiquing styles go I have no problem being told why it sucks, I just would also like to hear what I should have done to make it better...

As for the pictures, I love the subjects but I think I would have composed them a little differently.

In the first I would have moved closer to the barn and gotten as low as I could shooting up at it.

In the second I would have made the flag a much more prominent feature. Moving closer and framing it on the left of the shot. As it is I think it is too hidden by the foreground shrubbery.

 

[Alpha]

From what angle would you have taken it, higher, lower, closer, or farther? While I frequently agree with your blunt critiques I think if they included suggestions it would make them 10x more helpful. I am seriously asking here... what is the better perspective?

As I have said before, composition is inherently difficult to critique. You're only given what's in the existing photo, and your imagination can only go so far in 2D. With that said, actually proposing another angle or perspective is rather impossible in most cases. I could say, "maybe take it from the other side of the fence" or "get low and shoot up from the ground," etc. I can kind of imagine what the results might be, but do I really know what that barn would look like from any other angle? No, I really don't have a clue. There's not actually another perspective that I can tangibly suggest. Given that, all I can say is that the perspective I've been shown is boring.

The problem is that no goal has been stated. Most of the real cases when you can meaningfully suggest a different perspective are when there is a specific goal or shot in mind. For example, I recently shot a house in town that was going up for rent. Adorable place but small. If I had shot it dead on, it wouldn't have turned out well. And if I had shown a dead-on shot to an architectural photographer, they would have told me to get low in order to make the house look bigger, which is what I actually did when I shot it. But most of the time, there aren't many substantive suggestions to make regarding perspective. You know, if you show me a black and white nude of a woman lying down with one forearm covering her breasts, I'll tell you it's boring, to which you might say "Yeah? Well what angle/perspective should I shoot it from then!" Well, I don't know! There are an infinite number of other angles to shoot it from, and I don't really have that precise and idea of what they'd look like in a finished shot. That's your job. All I can tell you is, that particular angle/perspective is boring.

 

[Moe Sizlack]

This is taken directly from the header of the forum:

Designed specifically towards photographic growth, this is a venue for people who seek help or advice with a specific image. Technical problem? Concerns with composition?

As I have said before, composition is inherently difficult to critique.

While it may be difficult that is as I understand it the purpose of posting in this forum, for advice and suggestions. Please don't take any of this as a harsh criticism as I truly respect your photographic knowledge. I am just trying to get the most from it. :thumbup:

 

[Alpha]

The header of the forum, I think, is inconsequential in that regard. The fact that you are permitted to request help with composition doesn't reflect how possible it is to respond with meaningful advice.

 

[mysteryscribe]

Actually you can help to some extent max I see some terrible crops here. these on this articular post arent bad but some are just awful

 

[Alpha]

Cropping, sure. But angle of perspective and composition excluding cropping is much more difficult.

 

[The_Traveler]

First off.. Like the first picture. Could be a greeting card.. Gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling,

2nd - ( On MaxBloom) I had a teacher in Art school that only graded us with an A or an F. NO in between. He would make us stand in the middle of the classroom and ask us what we thought of our art. He then preceded VERY bluntly to tell us.. I want you to throw that piece of **** in the trash. F. He did this to me once. Next critique. He praised and it is now hanging at the college art gallery and is still there. YES it is one mans opinion. My teacher had no tact... nor was he liked by the students. I respected him and became a better painter because I didnt want the pat on the back, I wanted and still do.. honest critique... So what Max.. says it the way he does. Thats Max. Thats only his opinion. I sometimes PM Max so that he can give me a critique if he hasn't done so. He will tell me dead on... Thats boring. OR its been done.. OR thats a bad.,.. whatever he says. But then there are times.. only once.. that he said it was a good. That means more to me because I know hes not blowing smoke up my butt.

I'm sure no one is reading this.... but thats my 5 min. rant.

That may have worked for you. But how did it work for the other people that were so hurt or offended needlessly by that behavior?

If honest critique becomes rude or brutal, it is satisfying some rather unpleasant need in the giver and isn't good for the forum on the whole. I attempt to be honest and yet not needlessly unpleasant. I attempt to remember that the person receiving the comment has generally placed themselves in a vulnerable situation because they have exposed their work to prying eyes. I can honor them by being courteous.

I have taught a variety of classes, usually applied math or statistics, since 1982 and have raised 5 children to be good adults. I know that brutality and rudeness is not needed to be effective. One may have to tolerate it in a teaching situation but it is reprehensible in an anonymous group of 'colleagues.'

 

[Alpha]

However, you are simply on one side of the discussion. There are also a number of members here who feel that my critique isn't rude, though it may be "tactless" as some put it.

In fact, I've even received a number of PM's from random members (aside from Dianah) who have commended me on my forwardness, saying that it was a refreshing change from the timid beating around the bush that plagues a number of those who post critiques.

 

[Alpha]

I know that you insist it's possible to be informative and nice at the same time. It's not the problem of the person giving the critique that those asking for one have problems separating criticism of their work from criticism of their egos. In my opinion, the benefit of receiving a serious no-frills critique outweighs the possible damages to one's ego. And that goes for whatever people have to say about my work as well. Those who are not disturbed by my forwardness tend to regard it as highly informative and constructive. If I were to err on the side of caution every time I posted a critique, all of those people would miss out. If you don't believe me, why not take a poll of the number of people who personally have been helped by my comments vs those who have not. Those with fragile egos are likely to respond defensively to serious critique anyway. Tis a shame you aren't a fan of Voltaire.

Here's an example. In a recent thread started by a new member, BrianW, he posted a number of fashion style shots of his girlfriend. My critique was as follows:

#1: Her shirt is too blown out, and you need a hair light top-left to fill in the shadows on her legs and immediately behind her.

#2 Just doesn't do it for me. Her skin, especially on her arms and face, is gray. Her expression doesn't really say anything...the whole pose looks fake. I also don't see any point to the odd angle. And no girl wants to look like they have giant feet.

#3 The concept is good but not executed correctly. You and she need to be dead center. Her head/shoulders/breasts/legs are all out of line with each other.

#4 Trash this one. The pose makes her look fat.

#5 Like I said before, this one is the best. Nearly perfect...but you need to rotate it slightly in order to straighten out the mirror.

Now you'd probably say that my comments were rude, tactless, destructive rather than constructive, ad nauseum. Maybe you'd be right. But how did he respond?

thanks man that was some really good stuff im gonna use that on my next shoot

 

[The_Traveler]

You are hearing the voices you want to hear that allows you to justify how you act.

I have no complaint with what you are saying, it is that you are completely heedless of others feelings when you say them.

You are being hypocritical. The one time you actually posted a personal thought about feelings of failure, you expected everyone to be careful of your feelings and treat you tenderly. Where is that thoughtfulness towards others now.

You are very brave to hand it out anonymously but not so brave to take your chances with the rest of us.

 

[Alpha]

I don't have personal feelings of failure about my artwork. I have personal feelings about personal things.

 

[New England Moments]

Thank all of you for your comments.... I understand critique quite well, been involved in photography since 68"..

As I said critique to me is public opinion, and useful.. I professionally exhibited photography for nearly 18 months, in museums and galleries in the midwest. During this time I heard many many likes or even dislikes about certain photos involved in the exhibit... but never did I hear anything like some of this critique...in such a short time here.. sorry just plain rude...

I really feel sorry for any newcomer to this site in hopes of learning.. old proverb says , When the student is ready , the teacher will appear.. well a newbie posting here would loose interest really fast , after receiving critique.. He or she, might even be tempted to hang up the camera in discouragement..
because if Max's type critique, labels him as your hero, mentor, and teacher, god help the new students...

he speaks of shots, ( postcard ) as if thats a bad thing?? I make a decent living shooting Postcard / Calendar images???? Hmmmmmmmm?

Anyway, I don't want to make a big deal out of this, I can see this has caused a stir already..

Again I thank all of you for your opinions... I wish all of you the best of luck in your photography endeavors and dreams...

Max, again, I hope you lighten up some, a lot of young people can and will be hurt by your sharp critique on the keyboard... They will post here looking for help, your sharp tongue will hurt and discourage them... they will quickly loose interest in the art of photography ..

Ok folks its been real.... Good luck to all once again...in whatever your photo dreams are... Wish I could have got to known some of you , and possibly helped in some way..

bye now

I also want to say that this thread says serious critique, well in my opinion, serious critique also requires serious insight as to why?? I think one who says , as above, Boring, should also explain as to why he or she feels this way?? and even make suggestions on any critique?? ok I can't go on with this... some of you may get where I'm coming from??

 

[mysteryscribe]

Up to you friend. You are welcome here anytime. Possibly you started in the wrong thread. Anyway good luck.

Now I admit you have a year longer in business than me, but if max is the rudest critique or comment you ever had you are either the worlds best photographer or damn lucky. I have had worse from people who wrote me a check.

Oh yeah I have done art shows most people here have, I have sold cards with my images on them, and I have shot weddings. Most of the times I have had my heart broke by customers and critiques but that the nature of the beast we ride.