Question about color spaces

[Jon_Are]

I shot some flower images in the summer and I'm just now getting around to printing a few of them. Trying to, that is.

The colors are way off - muddy, etc. - and it sure looks to be a color space issue. Here is what I've done to process them, please tell me if I'm missing something:

• Shot in RAW, imported into LR2
• Edited in LR
• Sent to Photoshop CS4. On the way there, a window popped up saying: "The document has an embedded color profile that does not match the current RGB working space. Embedded: ProPhoto RGB. Working: sRGB." My options were to use the embedded profile, convert to the working space, or discard the embedded profile. I chose to convert to the working space, after which it loaded into PS.
• Once inside PS, I went to Image>Mode and changed it from 16 bit to 8 bit.
• Next, I saved as a JPG.
• Then I printed.

So, how did I screw up the colors?

Thanks!

Jon

 

[Big Mike]

Were you printing from home or sending it out to a lab?

When exporting from LR, you should be able to choose the color space, so try choosing sRGB at this point.

Either way, since you are not doing any editing in Photoshop, why bother to include that in the workflow? You can print (to printer or file) right from LR.

 

[Jon_Are]

Thanks for the response, Mike.

Were you printing from home or sending it out to a lab?

Printing at home.

You can print (to printer or file) right from LR.

I tried that, the colors were bad. I thought if I sent it to PS and converted to sRGB that might fix the color problem.

Bottom line: colors are bad whether printing from LR or PS.

My Nikon D80 is set to sRGB; shouldn't that indicate that PS won't ask me if I want to convert the color space?

Any other thoughts?

 

[Big Mike]

Are you sure that your printer is set up & working properly? Are you using the proper inks & paper?

I tried that, the colors were bad. I thought if I sent it to PS and converted to sRGB that might fix the color problem.

Printing right from LR should avoid the color space issue because there is no changing or converting that you do. So that makes me think the problem lies elsewhere.

 

[Garbz]

There is always a change in colour space when you print. In the LR case it's from the Working space (MelissaRGB in lightroom) to the printer profile (selected by the printer to suit the paper).

To answer the question, first tell me what screen you have. If you have a wide gamut screen you will noticeably see a loss in colour when converting from a large gamut to sRGB. In this case your solution is professional printing services, or you're making a mistake in print settings.

If you have a normal screen like 99% of us, then your problem really is some settings when converting the colour spaces or printing.

Do you lose colour fidelity when going from Lightroom to Photoshop and converting to the sRGB space? Try setting Lightroom to export in sRGB.

 

[Big Mike]

There is always a change in colour space when you print. In the LR case it's from the Working space (MelissaRGB in lightroom) to the printer profile (selected by the printer to suit the paper).

But that's all taken care of by LR and/or the printer drivers/software....isn't it? It's not something that we could screw up (is what I'm trying to say).

 

[Jon_Are]

first tell me what screen you have

Normal screen.

Do you lose colour fidelity when going from Lightroom to Photoshop and converting to the sRGB space?

Nope. Whatever I do, wherever I'm at, the color looks great on screen.

Try setting Lightroom to export in sRGB.

LR was already set to export in sRGB.

So I checked all the settings I could think of checking:

Camera (Nikon D80): Color mode: IIIa (sRGB)

Lightroom: Edit>Preferences>External Editing>Color Space: sRGB (File Format: TIFF, Compression: ZIP)

Photoshop CS4: Edit>Color Settings>Working Spaces>RGB:sRGB
Edit>Color Settings>Color Management Policies>RGB>Convert to working RGB
File>Print>Color Management>Profile: sRGB
File>Print>Color Handling>Printer Manages Colors
File>Print>Printer Profile>Working RGB – sRGB

I don’t know of any settings anywhere else to check; as you can see, I’ve got sRGB set wherever you look.

 

[Garbz]

But that's all taken care of by LR and/or the printer drivers/software....isn't it? It's not something that we could screw up (is what I'm trying to say).

Lightroom yes. It's photoshop I'm more worried about.

first tell me what screen you have

Normal screen.

How normal? Pass us a model. There are plenty of "normal" Dell screens with wide colour gamuts that cause this problem. I'm pressing this issue most of all because it's a likely source of the problem. The printer should handle most colour management itself, and your photoshop / workflow seems to be right too. However if you have a wide gamut screen, yet photoshop thinks it is a normal screen, then the picture on the screen will look more colourful than it actually is.

 

[RobSylvan]

It sounds like it might be a print settings issue. When printing from Lightroom, in the Print Job panel you have 2 options:

- Managed by printer (printer driver controls the color)

- Select the printer profile that matches your paper/printer combo (Lightroom controls the color)

What printer are you using? Some printers when "Managed by printer" is selected have trouble printing from Lightroom. In my experience the best results usually come from selecting the profile (via the Profile drop-down menu in the Print Job panel) that matches the paper type and printer model.

It is also important to turn off all color adjustment in the printer driver when a profile is selected in Lightroom or else both Lightroom and the printer driver attempt to manage the color and a bad print will result.

 

[Jon_Are]

Thanks, guys. I'm at work now but will reply from home tonight.

Jon

 

[Jon_Are]

Alright, I'm back.

My monitor is a Dell E207WFP.

My printer is an HP Officejet 6110.

Still experimenting.

Jon

 

[Jon_Are]

Here's what I've done today:

First, I installed a new color cartridge, just in case.

Then I converted a photo into three separate jpegs, one each sRGB, Adobe RGB and ProPhoto RGB. I printed out a sample of each of these from within LR.

Well, they all look like crap. the sRGB and the ProPhoto look similar and the Adobe RGB looks hideous.

I have a backup printer that I may hook up tomorrow and try printing these images just for S & G.

I haven't solved my problem, but I am learning some stuff.

Jon

 

[Garbz]

Ok doesn't look like the E207WFP has a wide gamut from my searches.

Have a look through the driver just before printing. There are often a few colour management options in there. Try setting Windows ICM or play with those settings.

Or try doing it properly from the start:
1. Go to HP's website and see if you can find some colour profiles for your printer.
2. Install them.
3. In lightroom, select lightroom manages colour, and select the correct colour profile.
4. In the printer driver completely disable all colour management. There'll be a setting for this somewhere.

 

[Jon_Are]

I have the problem solved, I think.

Additional steps I took:

Uninstalled, then re-installed the printer. Did nothing.

Hooked up my back-up printer, tried a few test prints. Same results.

Messed around with some more settings. I loaded a color profile from Costco (which I gotta believe was just sRGB) that I had once downloaded and installed. Selected that, then selected to disable any color management from within the print window.

This gave me a much-improved image, though still not a precise match for what my monitor shows (monitor's display is sharper, brighter, more lively).

So I'll be sending out for semi-important prints, or using these home settings for prints that require nothing more than "close enough for gov't work".

I know my next step is to get my monitor calibrated; don't know if I want to spring for that much money for a Sypder3, though.

Anyway, Garbz and Big Mike, thanks so much for your help and your patience. It's folks like you that make this the place it is.

Jon