Streaks on negatives??

[Tim Tucker 2]

Developing some 5x4 HP5 in a Mod54 tank, as normal and I got streaks across all the negs. Example below:

These are not consistent across the developed negs other than they run across the width so very unlikely to be fogging in the dark slides or camera, and there is no fogging on the film edges which rules out fogging in the box or while loading.

So I was thinking un-even development, and was annoyed at myself for ruining some (pretty mundane ) negs. So I left it a day, mixed fresh chems and started with a couple more paying strict adherence to my normal method. I came across this in the first neg. Presented as a positive and and reduced in size because it makes it clearer. This is an area of about 1" by 2" -ish:

Now to me, looking at the negs, they look suspiciously like the remnants of bubbles in the emulsion. It's almost as though you can see the *waves* of emulsion some with bubbles. So I'm now thinking that this is a manufacturing fault and that the streaks are actually the result uneven emulsion across a batch of about 13 negs.

Has anybody seen this before/what are your thoughts?

 

[480sparky]

Are you agitating the tank regularly, and tapping it to dislodge any bubbles?

 

[Ysarex]

I have gone through many many and many more brands of "daylight 4x5 film tanks" and that's what happens -- uneven agitation streaking. Dip and dunk or give it up. If I had that tank and insert I would do this:

Hopefully you have a darkroom.
Lights on:
Set out a tray to catch spills.
Put the tank in the tray with the film loaded and lid on.
Get everything ready including your timer -- audible if necessary.
Put on your latex glove.
Pour in the developer.
Lights out:
Remove the lid from the tank and immediately agitate by grabbing the insert and lifting it up and down. Completely remove the insert -- tilt and drain -- back in the tank for more up and down agitation and then lift and drain again and back in the tank for more up and down agitation and one more time.
Repeat every minute and the above agitation process should take about 15 seconds.
When time is up put the lid back on the tank.
Lights on:
Complete process in daylight.

Joe

 

[vintagesnaps]

I can't see it in the first but my computer screen is badly in need of cleaning! My thought with the second was seeing that there were bubbles... all that came to mind to me too was the agitation. But that wouldn't seem to explain the streaks... edit - but then I realized it was tank not what I've usually done and I've never seen this type streaking.

Only thing I could think of was to start over with fresh film and fresh chemistry.

But the reason I'm posting anyway is to say I think that first photo is wonderful. I love that little castle looking building off in the distance, fabulous perspective, and all the great texture and reflections in the water... superb. Print it and streaks be damned! I might just play with a bit of dodging along the streaks to try to minimize them but at least in all that texture they may not be that noticeable.

 

[davidharmier60]

I rather agree with vintagesnaps. The photo has MUCH to recommend it!

 

[Tim Tucker 2]

Thanks for the replies.

This has me worries mainly because this is the first time I've really used HP5+ sheet so I'm feeling my way around development times. As it happens I was spot on on my first *guesstimate*.

@480sparky Yes, agitation is via the spindle for the first 30 seconds but as the *reel* floats it's easy to tap it against the base. From there the lid goes on and agitation is 2 x gentle *torus* to swill the mix followed by 3-4 sharp taps on the base of the sink to dislodge bubbles. I also normally only place 4 sheets a time, (not utilising the middle groves).

@Ysarex I understand what you mean, and no, no darkroom yet. It's a new house we've just built and Sandra's bagged the spare rooms for and office and *zen retreat*. Darkroom on hold.

But the system I've used has never produced this result with FP4+, in fact I've had very good results. But...

I usually follow the same procedure and so am using the film in sequence, and am aware of this when developing. The first sheet to show an abnormality was the first one exposed and was in the first batch of 4 to be developed, (coincidence??). Here it is in positive:

At first I thought I had the film the wrong way around and the *holder* was touching the negative. But this is not the case because it doesn't line up with the holders. Then all the negs with the streaking. I'm not sure it ends but the last one that was scanned was the last dry one and the rest seem better.

It's difficult to show in a scan what I'm seeing but if you imagine a window with water flowing down in waves you will be close to it. If I turn the neg with the bubbles on it's side:

The remnants of the bubbles sit in the denser part of the negs. It's the first time I've encountered anything like this. It's like there's too much emulsion applied and it's running down the negs and the bubbles appear to be in the waves. It's not that I'm trying to rationalise this because I thought that it was my fault and processing. It was only when I saw this neg I started to wonder because the pattern is so similar to what I describe that it just jumps out at you when you hold the neg upright, (I can't show exactly what I see but the bubbles sit on curves of higher density and they are all orientated the same way, as though liquid is running down).
I deliberately left it a whole day and mixed new chemicals, along with my standard routine strictly adhered to but only two negs in the tank. The first neg was the one with the bubbles.

EDIT: I've never seen the effects of bubbles before in any of my negs, but my first though would be that they would not be so pronounced, as if they were there through the whole process?

@vintagesnaps The trouble is that if it's my process then the process will have to change. Which means that my baseline goes and I'm back to re-establishing it again. Either way I have no confidence in my next set of exposures and development. If it turns out to be a rare fault in the film such as the end of a batch then my process works for tanks which bcan prove difficult and is worth keeping. Hence the quandary...

However the streaks on the first are not difficult to disguise, (thanks to digital...)

 

[Neverbe]

This may happen in different situations:

1. Tank was not fully dry. Film got drops of water, which speeded up development mading uneven developed spots looking like bubbles (overdevelopment)
2. Air bubbles if you erroneously washed reel with stabilizer/photoflo (less possible because it should lead to underdevelopment and bubbles would have chaotic lines).
3. Not sufficient agitatation during fixing could end in white dots with some fixers (I experienced this with Foma fixers).

Not uneven agitation, because it would result in streaks in skies first of all. Bubbles are

P.S> I have not seen bad Ilford FP4+ emulsion in my life, but all could happen.

Good luck finding true evil.

 

[Derrel]

Air bubbles. Yes. MOST definitely.

 

[Tim Tucker 2]

Thanks for all the comments.

Now I've probably, (definitely), been over-thinking this so back to first principals.

The strange marks can be made to line up if I mis-load the neg, so the most obvious being the the most likely make me discount that as my own mistake.

Then the uneven development. It is now clear that this is uneven development and that they are air bubbles. So what is the cause?

In order from likely to unlikely:

Procedure. It is the same strict procedure I followed, and I did follow it strictly for the second batch. The results are so different from anything I've seen before to make this very unlikely. Plus I left it a whole day+ before starting again so reducing the tendency to repeat any error.

Manufacturing fault in the film. Very, very rare. So rare that it is probably more unlikely than the first reason. It's only the pattern on the most extreme example and what it looks like that makes me put this at number two. But, the first three negs from the box developed as expected, in a different batch on a different day. The problem started with, and continued, with the present two batches.

Problem with the chemicals. The most likely and probable cause. The fixer was a new bottle, the stop was a new bottle for the second batch, and the air bubbles and uneven development point to the developer.

So we have either a very rare fault when applying the emulsion or a knack'ed developer. But as it's HC-110 and has always been stable in the past we-re looking at an un-characteristic event. But he negs ar all a little less *crisp* than I normally get, it's neither over or under-developed but kind of a mix between the two. But not how I would've expected them to turn out.

Having over-thought this there's one thing that still puzzles me with the development. The negs all show a shift in colour from top to bottom, when scanned as I normally do as B&W negs, 24 bit colour. This could still be developer as it's consistent with the orientation of all the negatives in the tank. See below.

Now I've only got three negs left in the box and HC-110 is fairly cheap. So the solution is obvious, bin both and replace with new, (and the bottle I keep the dev in). But not discounting the first I've e-mailed Ilford and hopefully they'll want to see at least a scan. So another expert opinion, and it can only help.

Lessons learnt? Oh yes. Strict procedure is the only way, if you change more than one thing and there's an un-related problem you will run around in circles. Don't rule anything out, including your own procedure. If you suspect chemicals or the film change both but not your procedure at the same time.

Above all, maintain consistency!!!

Many thanks, your comments are appreciated. I will have to continue with the daylight tanks for the meantime, or at least until Sandra gives up *Zen*, or working. But I will be paying more attention to the little details as well as the big ones.

 

[Derrel]

HC-110 is a potent developer, compared with some others. How strong of a dilution of HC-110 were you using, and how long was the development time? I ask because uneven development is more likely to happen with a very strong developer and more likely to occur in a short development time than in a longer time.

As far as "rapping the tank", I wonder just how little force there is when a large tank containing a lot of solution is rapped on the countertop.

Do you pre-wet the film with a waterbath before pouring in the developer?

 

[Tim Tucker 2]

HC-110 is a potent developer, compared with some others. How strong of a dilution of HC-110 were you using, and how long was the development time? I ask because uneven development is more likely to happen with a very strong developer and more likely to occur in a short development time than in a longer time.

As far as "rapping the tank", I wonder just how little force there is when a large tank containing a lot of solution is rapped on the countertop.

Do you pre-wet the film with a waterbath before pouring in the developer?

I find that my times are longer than what everybody recommends for HP5+.

I use dilution B, 1 + 31. For scanning normally 7 mins with agitation for the first 30 secs and every minute with a standard landscape of 8/9 stops DR. The first negs were fairly flat scenes so actually got 8 mins as a guess but would've been better off with 7. HC110 is quite potent so I find actually easier to overdevelop than one may think. If I were to drop below 6 mins I would switch to 1 + 61 and double the time.

No I don't pre-soak either FP4+ or HP5+ because Ilford don't recommend it with most developers. I think HC-110 has a surficant (?) so it's debatable it makes nay difference other than sticking when developing in a tray.

It's a *Belfast* sink made of ceramic so 6 or 7 sharp taps normally has me wondering about cracks. I have never seen the traces of bubbles before. This is so new to me which is why I have so many un-answered questions.

 

[Dave Colangelo]

I see two issues here, one is the dust/air bubble problem and the other is the streaking. I had a pretty nasty streaking issue on some HP5+ I shot a while back (it was 120 format) the guy at my local lab told me that 400iso and up in high sun can cause that reaction during the processing. He advised that I use slower film for daylight stuff and I have never had the issue again. if you are shooting outdoors, on a tripod and don't need the speed consider slower films, it sounds like you have not had the issue with FP4+ which would support the theory.

The bubbles can be solved by tapping the corner of the tank after an agitation. Dust is mitigated with good film holder storage and cleaning as well as keeping your tanks dust free.

I also like to stir my chemistry well before using it to ensure a good even mixture.

 

[480sparky]

........... the guy at my local lab told me that 400iso and up in high sun can cause that reaction during the processing..............

.................................................................