Successful Criticism

[abraxas]

Alright, Abraxas, why is this topic so important to you as an individual?

I think it is important to understand criticism's relationship to art and the process of creative thought.


-

 

[Emerana]

But, forgive me if I am wrong, why is it so important to you specifically? You seem very concerned about this topic. For me if I dont like or agree with a review given, I ignore it and move on. If you dont like a review given to you, you ask the person to put you on their ignore and never again look at another one of your posts. And then you have started several threads about this topic. So it seems like it means more to you then most people and I am wondering why. You aren't required to answer this question, but I am very curious.

 

[abraxas]

-

 

[terri]

Let's discuss you specifically. Why does it bother you that I may not be interested considering your injected opinion?

How about you quit throwing down the gauntlet with members who disagree with your approach - and give this entire subject a rest for awhile?

Edit: And I don't give a damn if you appreciate my "injected opinion" or not. You seem more than willing to inject yours all over this forum. When you start zeroing in on members in this fashion, you have two options: the Ignore list or PM.

 

[Hertz van Rental]

Just to stir the coals, If one extrapolated Hertz's logic then one could assume that his insistence in believing that a formal education being the only real way to learn illustrates a need to justify his time spent in corporate education.

That comment shows you do not understand the difference between learning and education, Corinna. :mrgreen:

I have never insisted that a formal education is the only way to learn, but it is an essential part of the total learning process.
The majority of people in the West go to school - which is formal education.
We learn to read at school.
We learn to write at school.
We learn to do maths at school.
We learn a lot of things in formal education.
We do not stop learning once we leave school but what we learn at school gives us a solid base upon which to build.
I include being educated at home as part of formal education. There is still a tutor/pupil set-up even though it is in an informal environment.
It is very difficult (though not totally impossible) to teach yourself to read and write and the rest. But the learning process is much slower and you would tend to make more mistakes.
The same applies to Photography (as it does to any subject). A degree of formal education gives you a solid foundation upon which to build and develop and speeds up the learning process. Your education will also tend to cover a much broader field.
So to throw the ball back at you, if you think that a formal education is of no importance why do we have an Education system at all? And why did you send your children to school?

 

[Chiller]

I just had a photo of me taken in my new suit for the wedding, but had to get rid of it, cause the horizon was crooked. :lmao::lmao::lmao:

 

[LaFoto]

..., Corinna. :mrgreen:

? :scratch:

(Don't I see that Mike_E's being quoted?)

 

[kellylindseyphotography]

How about you quit throwing down the gauntlet with members who disagree with your approach - and give this entire subject a rest for awhile?

Edit: And I don't give a damn if you appreciate my "injected opinion" or not. You seem more than willing to inject yours all over this forum. When you start zeroing in on members in this fashion, you have two options: the Ignore list or PM.

:hail::hail:

 

[kundalini]

There seems (to me) that there is a fairly consistant theme in all these Crit Threads of late. The onus of when and how to critique is on the OP of the thread.

The aim of a crit should be to help the photographer improve.
If this is to happen then the photographer first has to try to explain what he/she was trying to achieve*.


That being the case, it really depends on why the photo was posted. If the person is looking for criticism then criticism is what you should give.


How and when should it be done?
It should be done when requested, and as requested.


To the people asking for the critiques:
If you want the BEST critique that anyone has to offer you, DON'T put restrictions on them, let it flow...


The OP should state what they were trying to do... and what the image is for. If the image is for commercial purposes then a more technical critique may be given (altough artistic interpretation is always useful too)... If the image is more artistic expression tho, then technical advice should really only be given once it is known what the OP is trying to achieve... and even then it can be a matter of opinion.


If you want some type of critique, say so in your post --C&C requested.

Some education or learning or schooling or mentoring or whatever term sets well with you, should be afforded to the posters in equal measure. If we really want to learn and hone of skills, we first have to learn how to ask the right questions to resolve our challenges in getting a good photograph.

This is where the valuable knowledge of experienced photographers will reap the greatest benefit... to the ones that are earnest about refining their skillset.

I may be way off base here, but I set up a little experiment. Let me preface this with I believe my skills are mediocre at best, but are far better than they were. So anyway, I started a thread Technical Assistance and Critique Please. I deliberately selected a photo taken when I had my camera only a few short weeks and the first outing with a new lens. At the time, I didn't know why it looked funny, but it did to me.

I had a few responses and they addressed my questions close enough. I then went back to reshoot within the parameters of their suggestions. I then submitted the reshoot photo in the same thread and asked for anybody else to chime in if wanted. I then PMd the first responders and ask that they have another look to see if I was able to achieve their suggestions.

I see nothing wrong with this tact. I just still believe that the posters, if wanting help, need to ask properly.

My 2¢ worth.

 

[RockDawg]

The funny thing is that it seems to be some of the "veterans" around here who seem to have the most problems with critique. I don't understand why giving critique on any photo not in the "just for fun" forum would be considered wrong. If it's a serious photo at all and not just a snapshot of a speical moment then why would the photographer NOT want any potential criticism? The only reason I can think of is that they feel they are above it and don't need to be subjected to it. Some posters mention just wanting to be able to "display" or show off their work. To me, that means they want ooohs and aaahs from admirers, but no criticism or suggestions from those with a different view. They want to preach to the choir so to speak. If that's the case, then isn't that what sites like Flickr or Photobucket are for?

I can totally see having a forum where people post photos that aren't to be critiqued, but it would seem that already exists here. How is that not enough? Is it because some posters don't want their "quality" work scattered among some out of focus snapshot of someone's cat playing with a ball? Does that somehow lessen your work? And if it is indeed your "work" than it should be out there to be viewed and judged by all.

Anyways this all just my opinion and I'm just a newb in the world of photgraphy, but I just hope people are, above all, HONEST when they respond to any photos I post. Positive or negative!

 

[Senor Hound]

Why can't critiquing photos be fun? Why can't someone tell you what works and what doesn't in a fun, friendly, and positive way? I can't think of any reason these two can't go together other than stubbornness by the person giving the critique. They say statements like, "I shouldn't have to sugar-coat things!" Well, there's a big difference between sugar-coating and being nice. Most people on here who say something "like it is," are just using that as an excuse to be rude to others. It probably makes them feel better, cause they can't get away with it in real life, talking like that to their coworker/spouse/boss. In reality, they're probably miserable with their life and use this place to vent.

 

[bblaine]

I just had a photo of me taken in my new suit for the wedding, but had to get rid of it, cause the horizon was crooked. :lmao::lmao::lmao:

haha!

 

[Alpha]

Why can't critiquing photos be fun? Why can't someone tell you what works and what doesn't in a fun, friendly, and positive way?

It's just a matter of positive caveats. Otherwise, how fun can it be to hear that you ****ed up? Sometimes really badly.

 

[LynziMarie]

I agree with the being nice part....
it's much easier to hear criticism and to actually use it if the person isn't insulting you.
Instead of "Wow, that sucks"
using "that's not the best, but if you do...." I'm pretty sure it'll be more beneficial to the person so they can make a change. When criticism is harsh and too "like it is" I often just ignore it... if I wanted people to be rude to me I'd go back to high school.
hehe

good points.

 

[JHF Photography]

I think the only ones that might take issue with this (and this is only from reading around these crit threads) are those older members who see the jsut for fun section as an area for "Failed" shots or for those that are not what they consider "good". I don't agree with that view, I see it not as a bloopers and pets thread but as a free one to show works where you are happy and confidant enough not to want the crit advice of others.
That is how I am seeing the setup of this forum - I hope I am right

The funny thing is that it seems to be some of the "veterans" around here who seem to have the most problems with critique. I don't understand why giving critique on any photo not in the "just for fun" forum would be considered wrong. If it's a serious photo at all and not just a snapshot of a speical moment then why would the photographer NOT want any potential criticism? The only reason I can think of is that they feel they are above it and don't need to be subjected to it. Some posters mention just wanting to be able to "display" or show off their work. To me, that means they want ooohs and aaahs from admirers, but no criticism or suggestions from those with a different view. They want to preach to the choir so to speak. If that's the case, then isn't that what sites like Flickr or Photobucket are for?

I can totally see having a forum where people post photos that aren't to be critiqued, but it would seem that already exists here. How is that not enough? Is it because some posters don't want their "quality" work scattered among some out of focus snapshot of someone's cat playing with a ball? Does that somehow lessen your work? And if it is indeed your "work" than it should be out there to be viewed and judged by all.

Anyways this all just my opinion and I'm just a newb in the world of photgraphy, but I just hope people are, above all, HONEST when they respond to any photos I post. Positive or negative!

I wasn't going to step into this discussion at all, but I felt that these comments needed to be addressed. Perhaps this will shed some light on why "the newbs" don't understand the "problems" the "older members" are having.

I think the main issue with the differing view points on this has everything to do with the fact that you are new. At one point in time there was a specific forum for "Critique" (can't remember if that was the exact name), and a lot of people used the "subject" galleries as just that, galleries. Generally the comments and suggestions were kept light and friendly, and if somebody wanted their photo given the once over, it was posted in the critique forum. The "Just for Fun" section (which used to be called "Snapshots and Bloopers") was for pics that went the name. It wasn't a place for serious pictures that people just wanted to display.

So in response to "Some posters mention just wanting to be able to "display" or show off their work", yes, that is the case for a large number of the "veterans" here. There is a reason that they are "the only ones that might take issue with this (and this is only from reading around these crit threads)....who see the jsut for fun section as an area for "Failed" shots or for those that are not what they consider "good"."