Tackling controversial issues

[Efergoh]

And I thought it was about the fact that violence and crimes of passion can be committed by either sex.

It could be about that as well. This is one of the things I enjoy about photography is that we all bring our own baggage to the table with us when we view photos. Our photos, like our children, take on lives of their own once we release them to the world. It is up to us as the creator (or parent if you will) to shape them as best we can so that that they won't be corrupted into something we did not intend, or send a message that is counter to the one intended.

 

[TomHuck-wa]

Writing a congressman or senator or being aware of whats going on around them is encouraging vigilante justice?

 

[terri]

well...the intended images have political messages.

Does that mean that they cannot be discussed on TPF?
If that is the case, a moderator can lock this thread, and I will no longer discuss these ideas, nor will I post them on the forum once they are shot and printed.

You're doing all right so far. Take it easy. As long as objective discussion is maintained while discussing the making of certain images, even ones with your personal messages, you're in safe waters. We're not here to engage in political discussions, of course, so just refrain from allowing things to slide that way. You're aware of the forum rules, I know.

Stay on track here, all. He's working through creating some images for his class and he's asking for feedback.

 

[RMThompson]

Efergoh,

When you listed the original ideas, in no way did you say the FOCUS of the image would be the cellphone, or the gun...

From a photography standpoint, I don't see how you could do this, with all the other image around it, without using something like selective color... and that sounds cheesy.

From a political standpoint, I don't think the message is justified by the gory images. Seeing a stark, in-your-face of an image of a woman about to be raped and the message is "Always bring your cellphone and carry a 35mm?"... I don't think it works.

The image, in that case, is too big for the message. I could easily tell women to bring their cell phones by having a picture in a dark alley with a woman in a car that has a flat tire. Same message, and less disturbing to get there... the "disturbing" part doesn't add anything.

Furthermore, and here is where we might differ, I don't see the NEED to create such images unless you were asked to do so for a place that might be posting these images. It sounds like you are trying to make some posters that you see in Health Department, like "Don't do drugs" or in your case "Carry a gun and a cellphone in case your raped by a knife weilding psycho"... Merely creating these images, even if the photograph and message match up, doesn't mean that:

a. women will see them

and

b. Women will respond to them.

If you *REALLY* are interested in helping women's struggles, call someone and ask them about your idea. Offer to create posters with your theme, and see how they respond.

I have to agree with The Traveler here. Your bringing the politics in to justify the photo, and while talking politics would be OK in this sense, it should be the other way around... Take a picture to talk about the politics. That's justified!

 

[brighteyesphotos]

I think the message behind the images will be powerful. As you had said, each person brings to the picture their own baggage. I'm not sure how I would react upon seeing the actual image. I'm going to echo Alex_B about looking fake. I know your methods and work well enough to know that you will take great pains to avoid looking fake. I wish you luck with your ideas and shooting.

 

[Efergoh]

Efergoh,

When you listed the original ideas, in no way did you say the FOCUS of the image would be the cellphone, or the gun...

You're right, I did not, but I did mention them as part of the scene.

From a political standpoint, I don't think the message is justified by the gory images. Seeing a stark, in-your-face of an image of a woman about to be raped and the message is "Always bring your cellphone and carry a 35mm?"... I don't think it works.

Actually it would be carry a cell phone and a 9mm. A 35mm wouldn't do much more than document your demise.

But if you go back and reread the idea, the woman who was the victim was armed only with her cellphone. The woman who thwarted her attack was simply armed.

This would be shot using an 8x10 and black and white film, so much of the gore would be negated by the lack of color. Selective focus would be used to put emphasis on the tools used by the subjects.

Furthermore, and here is where we might differ, I don't see the NEED to create such images

I'd love to discuss the need with you, but it would bring in politics. To me this is about self defense, but others might see it as a gun control issue.

 

[RMThompson]

I'd love to discuss the need with you, but it would bring in politics. To me this is about self defense, but others might see it as a gun control issue.

How? How is taking a picture helping ANYONE with self defense? You want to help? DO more courses on self defense. Taking a picture to help self defense is ridiculous.

 

[Alex_B]

How? How is taking a picture helping ANYONE with self defense? You want to help? DO more courses on self defense. Taking a picture to help self defense is ridiculous.

It does not help self denfense, no, but I guess Efergoh's idea is to raise awareness, to alert people... if I got the idea right

Help only comes from action/precaution of couse, not from the image itself

 

[Efergoh]

Alex has it.

No bumper sticker has ever changed the world, but has raised awareness. That is my intent.
Now, I'm off to go take my ridiculous pictures...

 

[The_Traveler]

Alex has it.

No bumper sticker has ever changed the world, but has raised awareness. ..

As far as I can see, there is plenty of awareness about rape, violence and guns. What awareness are you promoting?

 

[RMThompson]

Alex has it.

No bumper sticker has ever changed the world, but has raised awareness. That is my intent.
Now, I'm off to go take my ridiculous pictures...

WOAH! Easy buddy, I never said the PICTURES were ridiculous. Read again.

By the way, a bumper sticker placed on the back of a Yugo in a car lot in Greenville Kentucky does very little to raise awareness. Again, my argument is not your INTENT, but how you plan to achieve it.

Place that same bumper sticker on a Mercedes or a City Bus in New York, and maybe some people might see it and take notice. I don't understand how you plan to BROADCAST this to the "needy women" who need their awareness raised about the joys of carrying a gun in their purse?!

Furthermore, I don't think there is a lack of awareness for victims of rape, at least not the kind you're taking a picture of. Want to show a powerful image that protrays a contraversy? How about marraige rape, a growing and silent crime where husbands take advantage of their own wives, or date-rape, or pre-teen rape, where the victims rarely come forward because they thing they've done something wrong? The version of rape that you are portraying,(random single victim using deadly weapons), occurs at less numbers than other forms.

Here is a quote from the National Crime Victimization Survey 2005:

Contrary to the belief that rapists are hiding in the bushes or in the shadows of the parking garage, almost two-thirds of all rapes were committed by someone who is known to the victim. 73% of sexual assaults were perpetrated by a non-stranger — 38% of perpetrators were a friend or acquaintance of the victim, 28% were an intimate and 7% were another relative.


To me your entire idea is cliche'd, almost a "Hollywood" version of rape, and an affront to victims that didn't have cellphones or guns with them. I really don't agree with what you are doing, although I do agree with the idea of trying to raise self-awareness and help out defenseless women... which is why I said you teaching a self defense class would be much more useful.

 

[PetersCreek]

Efergoh—

Being a staunch advocate of legal, responsible, and armed self defense, I can relate to your project in principle and spirit. However, I have some doubts about how effective the photos you proposed will be in communicating your message. Assuming that you're tying to raise awareness among women, do you really think they'll connect to those images in the way you wish?

Both images are pretty grisly and I can imagine the some/many women might be so uncomfortable with either of them that the message will be lost or diluted. Of course, no woman wants to be raped or worse. But then, most don't want to kill anyone either. They might if they have to but they don't want to...and I'd hazard a guess that they don't even want to think about it, either. One big obstacle to overcome in this area is the mindset, "that'll never happen to me". If your images are too graphic, too clichéd, or too Hollywoodesque, I think you just might drive your intended audience to the "not me" zone.

In my opinion, people...with women being no exception...can sometimes be more easily moved to action by perceived benefits than by potential or remote consequences.

Do you think you could be more successful by showing the positive side of the self defense training you provide? Maybe you could illustrate how average women...young, middle-age, and older...sisters, wives, mothers, and grandmothers...are quite capable of getting out on the range and taking control of a firearm...and their safety...and they can even have fun doing it. Portraying safer, stronger, and happier women just might be the ticket...rather than just offering images of two traumatic scenarios.

 

[Efergoh]

As far as I can see, there is plenty of awareness about rape, violence and guns. What awareness are you promoting?

That a woman has a choice. She can choose to not be a victim.

 

[RMThompson]

That a woman has a choice. She can choose to not be a victim.

I hate that. That statement indicates that victims CHOOSE to be victims, which is not true. Surely some, and I emphasize SOME, victims could do more to protect themselves, but in no way did someone choose to be raped or murdered. (Im most cases).

The simple fact is that a woman, even walking in naked down an alley at three am, is not "ASKING" for any crime to be commited to her. The idea of victim's responsibilty in a crime is uterrly ridiculous, and needs to be stamped out.

The person doing the raping/killing/robbing is the person at fault. They made the decision to do this activity, regardless of the victims clothes or lack of personal defense.

Your mentality of choosing to NOT be a victim would lead to a world filled with weapons, knives and guns.

Furthermore - your pictures still don't create awareness.

 

[RMThompson]

Do you think you could be more successful by showing the positive side of the self defense training you provide? Maybe you could illustrate how average women...young, middle-age, and older...sisters, wives, mothers, and grandmothers...are quite capable of getting out on the range and taking control of a firearm...and their safety...and they can even have fun doing it. Portraying safer, stronger, and happier women just might be the ticket...rather than just offering images of two traumatic scenarios.

See, that is a responsible and effective idea. How about a hand breaking a board in a karate chop, and then the next picture we see that the class is of all women, who are enjoying themselves. Then the next picture is of the same woman being attacked, and her defending herself. Not of her half naked on the ground clutching onto a cellphone and the finding a gun in her purse.