The changing times of photography

[Steve5D]

I started around 2006.

But when I started shooting professionally means nothing. I learned photography on a Canon TLb. It doesn't get much more "manual" than that. Shooting professionally or not is hardly a metric to use in this discussion.

And I glazed over nothing. Just as you wanted to dismiss the "They're not at my level" answer that you would certainly inevitably get, so do you dismiss the reasons I gave for why it's better. Now, you may not like or agree with those reasons; I really don't give a rat's ass. But instead of dismissing them, perhaps you could make even a lame attempt at refuting them.

I don't know anyone who's not concerned with how much something costs. You seem to think that saving over $1,600.00 isn't a valid reason. Well, you're the only guy I know who believes that, so I'll go ahead and assume that it's you who may not be thinking straight. Just because you wouldn't think about it doesn't mean it doesn't matter. To say it doesn't matter is BS, unless you've just got so much money you don't mind pissing it away needlessly.

Then again, if you had that kinda' jack, you wouldn't be whining about wanting to take $15.00 portraits.

How about you explain how no longer dealing with those things makes photography worse?

I'll remind you, again, of the questions you asked:

...does it bother any of the full time photographers on this forum, or the weekend wedding photographers that have been in it for years that everyday in spite of the huge changes that they are seeing more and more unskilled people cutting in on their business

To that I answered "no". You're hardly in a position to suggest that my answer should be something else, or to to suggest that my response lacks merit, but you gave it the ol' college try nonetheless.

And then you asked this:

Does it get frustrating or at times feel like you are wasting time trying to keep it going?

To that I also answered "no", and you seemed to take issue with that, too.

Look, if you're having a hard time hanging in there because of the changes which the development of photography has brought about, get out. Do something else. Bartending's fun. But if you're afraid that the photographers of tomorrow aren't going to ever learn how to use a light meter to shoot portraits in the snow, get over it. Hell, I know professional photographers who've never seen seen snow.

The bottom line is that change is inevitable. People will always try to do more with less. That used to be a measure of efficiency. Now, according to you, it's something to be scorned and ridiculed.

I make my living with a digital camera. I shoot in Manual. I shoot in Auto. I get the job done. I have happy clients who pay me. They don't care if I can impress them by pushing a roll of Tri-X to 1600. That doesn't matter to them. That matters to other photographers. Once upon a time, I didn't know anything about that. Now, back then then, more experienced photographers couldn't jump on the internet and complain about photographers who knew less. So you know what one of them did? He taught me how to push a roll of Tri-X to 1600. Now, 35 years later, that's pretty much a useless little nugget of random information, and I'm hardly a better photographer because I know how to do it.

I haven't ran a roll of film through a camera since 1997. I know how to use a light meter. I know how to develop film. I know my way around a darkroom. I can drive a stick. I can do those things, but I don't have to. Rookie photographers who can get the job done without knowing the intricacies of what you and I learned 30 or 40 years ago will get the job done. You can either adapt to that, or you can walk around and complain about the new kids don't know what you know, and who will eventually overtake you because they're satisfying their clients instead of complaining about other photographers...

 

[imagemaker46]

You're completely right, I have no argument against anything you said. I'm just a burned out old photographer trying to scrape together enough to carry on, living in the past glory of what once was. I will add that all the things that you did learn shooting and processing film does matter, regardless of what you think. The last rolls of film I ran though my old Canon F1's were covering the 2000 Olympics in Sydney. In three weeks I head to Sochi to cover the Paralympics, the first Olympic event I will shoot on digital. Everything I learned from the past shooting film is relevant. I learned how to shoot film without waste, I learned timing because I only had a limited amount of exposures. I'm not concerned about the young kids taking over, in fact, like my Dad who taught me and some of the best photojournalists in the world, I like to think that I can pass on what I have learned in the past 40 years to the next generation. Sadly too many don't care about the past, they all believe they already know everything.

 

[minicoop1985]

I think part of the problem with shrinking departments in journalism is the whole consolidation thing. One person with a degree in journalism and a D3200 on auto mode can do what took a team in the past. That journalist can snap 400 pictures of a fire to get 5 good enough ones, whereas in the past, it took someone with some serious skill to get the exposure, composition, and depth of field just right on film, where each shot costs real money, and someone else would write the story.

I take product photos for my business. I'm not claiming to be a professional-put those pitchforks down. Yes, you. And the torch. And off my lawn-WATCH THE LILACS. Technically, they're products, and I take pictures of them. So yes, they are product photos, even if they look like they were taken by Michael J. Fox during an earthquake. Anyway, there's always going to be that kind of thing. There's always going to be photographic artists. There's always going to be sports, which aren't the easiest thing to photograph (I've tried, and due to self esteem issues, never posted). There will always be the people who want more than a MWAC (Mom with a Camera for those of you who don't know yet-google it) to shoot their wedding or their kids or even their car (I see a lot of this on car forums). Are these markets smaller now that MWACs will charge $400 for a wedding that a great photographer might charge $4,000 (what we paid ours) for? Absolutely. People are cheap, and that's a huge part of the problem.

 

[robbins.photo]

I know how to use a light meter. I know how to develop film. I know my way around a darkroom. I can drive a stick.

Wait... you can drive a stick?

[falling to my knees and pressing my face to the floor] - I'm not worthy! I'm not worthy!

Lol.. just trying to lighten it up a bit there big guy.

 

[imagemaker46]

I kinda went a little overboard trying to make a point about how I see things and ended up taking it too personally, but when my career is being whittled down a little more every year I do get my back up. Steve I understand the points you have made and appreciate your opinion. We all have them. When I see stats that show photographers at US newspapers have seen a 43% decrease in jobs since 2000, I have reason to be a little more concerned than most. I believe the stats would be the same in Canada. Reuters stopped covering sports in North America, a client I spent 10 years shooting for, and has been laying off staffers and freelancers.

 

[Steve5D]

You're completely right, I have no argument against anything you said. I'm just a burned out old photographer trying to scrape together enough to carry on, living in the past glory of what once was. I will add that all the things that you did learn shooting and processing film does matter, regardless of what you think. The last rolls of film I ran though my old Canon F1's were covering the 2000 Olympics in Sydney. In three weeks I head to Sochi to cover the Paralympics, the first Olympic event I will shoot on digital. Everything I learned from the past shooting film is relevant. I learned how to shoot film without waste, I learned timing because I only had a limited amount of exposures. I'm not concerned about the young kids taking over, in fact, like my Dad who taught me and some of the best photojournalists in the world, I like to think that I can pass on what I have learned in the past 40 years to the next generation. Sadly too many don't care about the past, they all believe they already know everything.

Living in the past is a sure-fire way to ruin.

I just had breakfast. When I was done I put my dishes in the dishwasher and started it. There were a couple of dishes in there from dinner last night, too; chicken.

Now, I know that raw chicken leaves nasty stuff on whatever it touches. I know that I want to wash whatever it touches. Unfortunately, I don't know what temperature the water has to be to successfully kill the germs. But I know if I throw it into the dishwasher and hit "START", it'll come out clean and safe. I don't really care how it gets that way. I don't have to.

The first time I recorded in a "real" studio, it was on a Neve board that I'd have a difficult time fitting into the back of my truck, and it was a two-man lift. When we wanted to order pizza, we picked up one of those new-fangled push-button telephones and ordered some pizzas. I would then go back, pick up my tuning fork, and retune my guitar for the next cut.

These days, I can download any one of a hundred programs and record an entire album on my phone. Hell, I don't even need a drummer. I can get one of those off the internet or the app store. With the touch of a single button, I can tell my phone to call the pizza place and order a pizza. I don't even have to know how to dial a phone. When I need to retune my guitar, I don't need to know that the A string should vibrate at a frequency of 440 hertz. I just hit the string until the display on the tuner app I downloaded turns green.

Now, 35 years ago, I'd need to know how to dial a phone, and I'd damn well better know to grab the tuning fork that's 440 Hz. I'd better know how to adjust levels on a board if I'm mixing. While their are differences, the ease of doing it today isn't diminished because it's easy. It's still viable music. Someone who listens to something I record today and likes it isn't going to suddenly not like it if they learn how easy it was for me to create. They're just going to like it because, at the end of the day, it's the final result that matters.

The old ways aren't inherently "better", they're just different...

 

[Steve5D]

...but when my career is being whittled down a little more every year I do get my back up.

And that's kind of my point.

If you do nothing to adapt, your career will be whittled down into nothing. You need to alter how you do what you do to ensure that clients see a value in hiring you.

For me, I'll do what I need to do to keep working. Period. If that means not concerning myself with the "details" that I needed to know all those years ago, so be it. Instead of concerning myself with how the "kids" haven't learned what I learned, I'll concern myself with using what I've learned (and what they haven't) to give myself an edge over them...

 

[imagemaker46]

I have adapted, I make changes all the time, in how I market myself, the way my web site is more business and less show off what I can do. I offer more to my clients and they are willing to pay me what I ask without question. I have picked up a new client for this year that will generate more income, largely due to a couple of new professional sports teams starting up this year and getting in with them from day one as their team photographer. I have talked with a client I've been with for over 10 years and suggested a different way to cover their events, that will also get me to Australia, Hawaii, California, Florida and Vancouver this year. What it cost me was a re-negotiated contract where I dropped my fees in order for them to send me on more shoots, filing photos into the wire service networks, iv'e offered them more for less.

I think growing up in a photographic family, with a Dad like I have, he taught me to always embrace the past and never forget it, or what I have learned. I still pull out some old tricks from the past that work for me simply because clients have never seen them before. The new world order of everything being computer and camera phone technology has replaced some of the basic areas that photographers have forgotten about, but are still used by my Dad and he constantly reminds me about them. It is no-tech ways to attract and impress clients. So I do adapt and I have changed the way I approach things, and for the most part it works. There is also the other side where people aren't interested in how things used to be done, even though they work and would be a better fit for their needs. Trying to convince a potential client that is used to having amateurs constantly knocking on their doors offering to do things for free, or not enough to even cover their expenses does in fact make it more difficult, regardless of how good the photographer may be.

I will say this about the past, having fewer photographers around made it easier to deal with a client, it was "the perception of owning a camera" that gave potential clients the idea he must be good if he can afford the gear. Now the perception is that he has a camera, big deal, everyone has a camera, so we'll just hire the cheapest one.

 

[vintagesnaps]

I'm not and never have been even close to a full time pro photographer, I almost majored in journalism but am glad I switched gears a long time ago. Following some of what's happening in sports and news photography etc. it seems to have been getting hard for photographers to continue to find work. I've read on a sports site I follow from time to time that photographers are getting undercut by people with cameras who underprice their work; they say that sometimes when a former client is getting nothing but crap then they come back to them wanting some decent photos... Still it seems to be newspapers firing their entire staffs more than opportunities opening up anywhere.

I remember talking to an NHL team photographer some years ago about the time Getty was coming into it, which seems now to be a monopoly at major league level; great for the teams I guess and an advantage for photographers could be they could work covering other events they wouldn't be doing working for one team; a disadvantage that they could get a photo that could be reused and relicensed and I don't think they see the extra profit from that. Maybe they didn't anyway, depended on who they were shooting for and the contract they had etc. but I remember reading about that too - contracts working more and more to the photographers' disadvantage.

I think work in all types if media isn't necessarily good these days. In my area newspapers seem to be hanging in there but radio has been particularly hard hit and is mostly owned and programmed out of state (which makes for hardly a decent station to listen to). I know at least three guys thru local hockey that were out of their jobs in radio and only one is even working in their field in PR anymore.

What I hope runs the wannabees out of photography (well at least some of them) is that maybe eventually the economy will gradually continue to improve and everybody will get tired of looking at crappy pictures and the standard of professional media outlets will start to go back up. I mean, I think there is still some demand for good sports photographs but there seem to be a lot of publications willing to settle, and use lowers standards of what's acceptable.

I'm glad if nothing else that when I have done some local hockey that it's been at a lower level of sports where we're too small time for big media outlets! And that photography is something I can do and enjoy it and don't need to rely on it financially. I hope things at some point turn around and improve, and adapting as best as you can to what's workable these days I guess is all someone can do.

And Steve it isn't free... a photographer needs a camera, media cards, batteries, a back up camera, maybe a laptop for work, a computer, an internet hookup payment (although those for most people aren't used exclusively for photography), upgrades in equipment, etc. etc. And your expertise, which cost something in time and money (equipment) no matter how you learned and maintain your skills and knowledge base.

 

[bribrius]

picked up the photos earlier. Guy at the walmart photo boothe that served me was a photographer. He works at walmart. He has been a photographer since 1968. Told me he started on the 4's and in black and white. was a apprentice for two years before he made a dime. Started with weddings, worked his way up from there. Five decades later, he went to retire. Couldn't afford it. He works at walmart three days a week now in the photo center to help make ends meet. But he says he likes it. Because he can help people with their photography. I would guess I have considerably more than he does and haven't spent my working life to this point in photography. But I don't look down on him for his choices or working at walmart. Im fascinated by him, and what he must know that I don't. Just listening to him for ten minutes, he captivated me. The knowledge and experiences.

It went through a transition, photography. imo. similar to the reference I made to printing in the is the dslr dead thread. It was more art, apprenticeship, hand craft if you will. Now it is a four thousand dollar camera and auto mode. Digital images and photoshop. it don't mean jack any more. And people get into it to make a buck, because it is now so easy. you don't actually have to know photography to buy a expensive camera and push the button and get a good image. Because it is so much easier, and common, it is being devalued. As it should be. Because it isn't the same thing it was fifty years ago and doesn't have the same value. IT isn't the final product, that gives the value. Everyone seems to think it is, but a good portion of that is b.s. Anyone that knows antiques, collectables, things that hold value. Know it isn't the final product. It is the craftsmanship, rarity of it that gives real value. It is what it takes to produce the final product. The easier something is to make or recreate, the more common it is, the more efficient its process, the less it is worth. PRetty much how all commodities are. That's capitalism.

 

[bribrius]

Everyday we read that newspapers are dumping entire photo departments, long time photo companies are closing and yet more and more people are turning to photography to make an extra buck on the weekends. We see that the area the new photographers are targeting are weddings, they believe it to be the quickest way to make money.

People still have dreams of becoming photographers for a variety of reasons, and I understand most of them. I talk to a lot of very talented young photographers that tell me the best years of photography have passed and yet they are still out there trying, and most are struggling, where 10 years ago these guys would be looking at staff jobs almost anywhere. These are the ones that went to school, learned photography, and that I consider some of the best young photographers out there, and yet they find it difficult just making ends meet. I know that this is happening in every city in every country. The outlook is bleak at best for most.

So to pose a question, does it bother any of the full time photographers on this forum, or the weekend wedding photographers that have been in it for years that everyday in spite of the huge changes that they are seeing more and more unskilled people cutting in on their business.

I don't need to hear the usual, "but they aren't as I am above that level" They aren't affecting my business at all, because the bottom line is that every day a tiny piece of work is being lost. Even if it is a $15 head shot that you might have done, add those up over the months and it does become a bigger piece.

Does it get frustrating or at times feel like you are wasting time trying to keep it going? Anyone can answer this this, from the beginner that is hoping one day, to the ones that have been at it longer but can't seem to get ahead, to the advanced photographers.

Personally I know the best years of photography have passed and I'm glad that I had the opportunity of being able to work during these years. I've talked to a lot of my friends that have been working as professionals for decades and they all feel the same way. Many of them have lost their staff jobs as well.

Have you ever considered painting? Don't laugh. I took up painting about eight years back. Im not very good at it. But it feels good to do it. I personally really enjoy it. Going from painting, to photos, well kind of feels like a step down. well, unless it is a artistic photo. Regular photos seem more like a copy. Painting a original, hands on. Photo a copy. And I don't even do real photography I use digital. Data images. No real talent there I even have a auto mode if I want to. so I feel like a cheap whore. Try painting. I actually have to buy some more canvases speaking of which. im going to put that on my too do list. But really, its relaxing and allows you to use your creative side. And even if your paintings suck they will be worth more than most photographs because most photographs these days are worthless.

 

[AlanKlein]

I'm not a pro and know little about the photo industry. But I was in business for 20 years that ended. So I know something about success and failure. Who doesn't? But it seems to me that while certain parts of the photo industry have been effected by quantity of photographers , people who call themselves pros, there are other parts that still required a heavy skill set. And know how to niche themselves and make contacts with people who will give them business.


I'm thinking of the magazines that have ad's for travel, jewelry, clothes, etc. Someone is taking pictures of equipemt in the B and H Photo catalog. Who's shooting those fancy glamor and clothes shots and cover shots? I'm sure the editors of Bazaar don't hire out to the cheapest. They have their contractors, including photos companies and ad agencies, that do work for them. They may bid out but it's only the professional companies that they'll accept bids from. What about all those annual statement brochures by public corporations. They have industrial photos as well a portraits. A guy owning a Rebel isn't taking their shots.

These are economically hard times in addition to changing photographic times. I know architects with two post graduate degrees who are out of work. Difficult economic times always create a culling effect. Maybe the best thing do is spend most of your time visiting prospective clients, contacting them on the phone and using social connections to get in the door. Get off this forum and spend the time prepping a resume and updating your portfolio for presentation.

If the doors you get into are the type that only buy the cheapest, you better change your business plan. If you're not best at selling yourself, a different skill set to be sure that snapping the shot, then maybe you have to look for companies that would hire you to satisfy their customers. These are hard times for a lot of people in a lot of industries. I hope everyone here can see it through.

 

[imagemaker46]

Everyday we read that newspapers are dumping entire photo departments, long time photo companies are closing and yet more and more people are turning to photography to make an extra buck on the weekends. We see that the area the new photographers are targeting are weddings, they believe it to be the quickest way to make money.

People still have dreams of becoming photographers for a variety of reasons, and I understand most of them. I talk to a lot of very talented young photographers that tell me the best years of photography have passed and yet they are still out there trying, and most are struggling, where 10 years ago these guys would be looking at staff jobs almost anywhere. These are the ones that went to school, learned photography, and that I consider some of the best young photographers out there, and yet they find it difficult just making ends meet. I know that this is happening in every city in every country. The outlook is bleak at best for most.

So to pose a question, does it bother any of the full time photographers on this forum, or the weekend wedding photographers that have been in it for years that everyday in spite of the huge changes that they are seeing more and more unskilled people cutting in on their business.

I don't need to hear the usual, "but they aren't as I am above that level" They aren't affecting my business at all, because the bottom line is that every day a tiny piece of work is being lost. Even if it is a $15 head shot that you might have done, add those up over the months and it does become a bigger piece.

Does it get frustrating or at times feel like you are wasting time trying to keep it going? Anyone can answer this this, from the beginner that is hoping one day, to the ones that have been at it longer but can't seem to get ahead, to the advanced photographers.

Personally I know the best years of photography have passed and I'm glad that I had the opportunity of being able to work during these years. I've talked to a lot of my friends that have been working as professionals for decades and they all feel the same way. Many of them have lost their staff jobs as well.

Have you ever considered painting? Don't laugh. I took up painting about eight years back. Im not very good at it. But it feels good to do it. I personally really enjoy it. Going from painting, to photos, well kind of feels like a step down. well, unless it is a artistic photo. Regular photos seem more like a copy. Painting a original, hands on. Photo a copy. And I don't even do real photography I use digital. Data images. No real talent there I even have a auto mode if I want to. so I feel like a cheap whore. Try painting. I actually have to buy some more canvases speaking of which. im going to put that on my too do list. But really, its relaxing and allows you to use your creative side. And even if your paintings suck they will be worth more than most photographs because most photographs these days are worthless.

I've spent almost as long in photography as I have using an airbrush. I paint a lot, was in an art program though high school, and always take a pad and pens when I travel. It's pretty relaxing. These days I am doing replica professional football helmets as a hobby.

 

[imagemaker46]

I'm not a pro and know little about the photo industry. But I was in business for 20 years that ended. So I know something about success and failure. Who doesn't? But it seems to me that while certain parts of the photo industry have been effected by quantity of photographers , people who call themselves pros, there are other parts that still required a heavy skill set. And know how to niche themselves and make contacts with people who will give them business.



I'm thinking of the magazines that have ad's for travel, jewelry, clothes, etc. Someone is taking pictures of equipemt in the B and H Photo catalog. Who's shooting those fancy glamor and clothes shots and cover shots? I'm sure the editors of Bazaar don't hire out to the cheapest. They have their contractors, including photos companies and ad agencies, that do work for them. They may bid out but it's only the professional companies that they'll accept bids from. What about all those annual statement brochures by public corporations. They have industrial photos as well a portraits. A guy owning a Rebel isn't taking their shots.

These are economically hard times in addition to changing photographic times. I know architects with two post graduate degrees who are out of work. Difficult economic times always create a culling effect. Maybe the best thing do is spend most of your time visiting prospective clients, contacting them on the phone and using social connections to get in the door. Get off this forum and spend the time prepping a resume and updating your portfolio for presentation.

If the doors you get into are the type that only buy the cheapest, you better change your business plan. If you're not best at selling yourself, a different skill set to be sure that snapping the shot, then maybe you have to look for companies that would hire you to satisfy their customers. These are hard times for a lot of people in a lot of industries. I hope everyone here can see it through.

Every field has been affected in some way, some more than others. It comes down to what people perceive to be the easiest to do, which in reality are some of the hardest areas, sports and weddings. I exclude the high fashion, products, food, that area which requires a lot more gear and a different skill set, working with more complicated lighting setups etc. People like the idea of weddings as it's an easy way to make big money quickly, it is also a quick way to screw up a photo shoot that leaves very little room for mistakes. Shooting sports, because there are so many different levels is easier but becomes more difficult as you more up the levels. The weekend photographers that shoot kids sports generally can come away with some nice pictures of their kids, some do basic setups for team pictures, it's not difficult if they have a basic understanding of the camera. Once you move into shooting at the college and professional levels there is no room for mistakes, everything moves faster working around more photographers, bigger players, the level of knowledge changes. In other areas where they may have been only a few good photographers working in a smaller city doing all the portraits, weddings etc, and doing quick well, have now found that there are now 100 willing to shoot for less. They can change how they market themselves, adapt to the changes in technology but in the end they are still having to compete against 100 new photographers, even if 90 of them are hacks, that still leaves 10 good enough to do the job well, this is where the competition begins.

 

[robbins.photo]

Every field has been affected in some way, some more than others. It comes down to what people perceive to be the easiest to do, which in reality are some of the hardest areas, sports and weddings. I exclude the high fashion, products, food, that area which requires a lot more gear and a different skill set, working with more complicated lighting setups etc. People like the idea of weddings as it's an easy way to make big money quickly, it is also a quick way to screw up a photo shoot that leaves very little room for mistakes. Shooting sports, because there are so many different levels is easier but becomes more difficult as you more up the levels. The weekend photographers that shoot kids sports generally can come away with some nice pictures of their kids, some do basic setups for team pictures, it's not difficult if they have a basic understanding of the camera. Once you move into shooting at the college and professional levels there is no room for mistakes, everything moves faster working around more photographers, bigger players, the level of knowledge changes. In other areas where they may have been only a few good photographers working in a smaller city doing all the portraits, weddings etc, and doing quick well, have now found that there are now 100 willing to shoot for less. They can change how they market themselves, adapt to the changes in technology but in the end they are still having to compete against 100 new photographers, even if 90 of them are hacks, that still leaves 10 good enough to do the job well, this is where the competition begins.

I get where your coming from - I'm not a pro photographer, never had a desire to become one, and am quite happy with my amateur status. For me it's a hobby, not a career. But I spend a good many years in the IT field. At first if you had the knowledge you were fairly coveted - then pretty soon everybody and their brother it seemed was hanging out a shingle and charging a lot less. Granted a lot of them couldn't find their keesters in the dark with both hands, a flashlight and a map but it still had a pretty drastic impact on those of us who could.

The glut of folks who would fix your computer or build you a website or whatever for dirt cheap prices continued to increase, and while it was bad enough that they made you do a whole ton of extra work trying to market yourself and explain to people that if they wanted quality work they really needed to spend the extra, what was worse is the effect they had on the market as a whole. Pretty soon it got to the point where telling people you were a computer tech or consultant or whatever term you wanted to use got to be almost akin to telling them you were a sleazy used car salesmen, or a con artist of some sort.

Folks got so gun shy after paying 2, 3, or maybe 5 other completely unreliable know nothing amateurs representing themselves as pros that they just absolutely would not believe that you were a professional and wouldn't do the same thing to them that the other guys had done. It took a ridiculous amount of effort to establish a rapport and build the trust of the client to the point where you could get a halfway decent business relationship established, and all it took was for one thing to go wrong during that process, even if it wasn't your fault, and that relationship would be totally ruined at the outset. The clients for the most part had zero trust, and that's a pretty rough place to start from.

So yup, I get where your coming from. Unfortunately there just isn't anything that can be done about the cause, all you can try to do is deal with the end result.