The Whole Series

[Alpha]

if you told the model to look awkward bored and unproffessional then you did an excellent job well done.

Quite the contrary. In this situation, it's the model's job to do whatever the hell I want. If she weren't looking awkward, then that would be unprofessional.

 

[jols]

i dont understand that previous post.

and please do not swear at me


if she indeed did what you wanted her to do then the pics look awkward and you need to rethink your style

 

[wildmaven]

It is an experiment in trying to shoot the model receding into the environment.

I guess, since most of the discussion has been about the model, she didn't recede far enough...

All humor aside, I think two things are happening here in this thread. First, you are known to give harsh critiques, so this was a chance for others to do the same. Whether it is "pay back" or they thought "if he could give it, he must be able to take it", I can only guess. I certainly would be upset if someone said my photo "sucks." Second, it is very easy, when someone questions the mood of a piece, to take it personally. You were upset that your awkward/stoic pose wasn't understood and was questioned. That's understandable. But, the next time you see someone's photo, and the model looks bored, uncomfortable, etc., will you say to them, "did you tell her to look bored?" I think this thread would've been off to a better start had you stated at the beginning, "I was trying for such and such feel...did I succeed," especially if you're trying for a theme that could be misinterpreted so greatly.

Marian

 

[Alpha]

My style is whatever I like, thank you very much.

My point was that the model's job, to a great extent, is to follow direction. As such, provided that I wanted her to be awkward, she was doing her job and was therefore being "professional." Were she to not follow direction, then she would not be doing her job and would therefore be "unprofessional."

So thank you for complementing me on "an excellent job."

 

[Alpha]

I guess, since most of the discussion has been about the model, she didn't recede far enough...

All humor aside, I think two things are happening here in this thread. First, you are known to give harsh critiques, so this was a chance for others to do the same. Whether it is "pay back" or they thought "if he could give it, he must be able to take it", I can only guess. I certainly would be upset if someone said my photo "sucks." Second, it is very easy, when someone questions the mood of a piece, to take it personally. You were upset that your awkward/stoic pose wasn't understood and was questioned. That's understandable. But, the next time you see someone's photo, and the model looks bored, uncomfortable, etc., will you say to them, "did you tell her to look bored?" I think this thread would've been off to a better start had you stated at the beginning, "I was trying for such and such feel...did I succeed," especially if you're trying for a theme that could be misinterpreted so greatly.

Marian

I was not necessarily asking for critique, though I was not closed to the idea, as this is a "gallery."

If people want to be vengeful regarding my critique style, then that's okay. I don't particularly have a problem with that (as you can see by my posting the shots and therefore knowingly opening myself up to it in the first place). I'm also not upset that someone said my photo "sucks." If someone thinks it sucks, then that's their prerogative. Second, I don't really take the questioning of the mood personally. I feel that I did a perfectly fine job of setting the mood. And as I said before, I believe that people will have a tendency to look at some of these shots and at first glance think they are failed attempts at the pop fashion style. Perhaps that's a reasonable conclusion on face. But as I also mentioned, when I look at others work and see what appear to be errors, I do, in fact ask whether they did it on purpose. And when in doubt, I ask them wherever possible. But my point is that one's viewing of a piece ought to not be so superficial. It's all too common that we look at others' work, only to give it a quick judgment and move on. I'm right here to answer the question, "did you do that on purpose?" No one asked. The will to capture something is arguably the most conceptually important aspect of photography. If you're looking at a photograph and you're not asking some question about why they decided to trip the shutter when they did, then you're not really looking at it at all. To judge on face, based simply upon your personal aesthetics or your own abilities as a photographer is to do that intentionality a disservice. So no, I don't believe that I ought to have prefaced it. I am not saying that my work is perfect. But if every time you see something that's off, or different, or unnatural, and you immediately conclude that it's a technical error, then you're hardly being a critic at all. One shouldn't have to shoot such that it's so painfully obvious the work is out of the ordinary. That re-orients the impetus for the shot in the first place. I believe it's just as important that people utilize subtlety in their work as it is that people be open to it when examining it. As a viewer, you're not really critical at all if you're unable to be affected by anything in between ordinary and outrageously out of the ordinary.

 

[nossie]

Max's frustration isn't unfounded, most of the critiques are opinions about the style he's going for, not how successfully he achieved the look he intended.

if you told the model to look awkward bored and unproffessional then you did an excellent job well done.
if this was nt your intention then maybe your model was the wrong choice or you you didnt direct her properly.

Any comments are welcome.

Sorry to disappoint. Perhaps you can find solace in the fact that your glass is bigger.

I'm bothered (though not entirely surprised) that you would rule out any intentionality on my part

Seems to me any comments aren't welcome. Only a certain point of view is welcome, if we don't appreciate it then it's obviously us that's not worthy of the work. I don't care what amount of effort or work goes into a shot. If it's not pleasing to the eye then it's not pleasing. There's all sorts of arty effects and ideas being put in to and added to shots, some work for some people in the audience and some don't.

I could train a monkey to beat a guitar with a hammer and record it and then argue when people don't want to listen to it that "oh you people have no appreciation for the effort I put into training that monkey to beat the guitar with the hammer and you just don't get the thinking behind it of bringing the fusion of Industry and Music together." That's a serious BS attitude.

I don't like 3. It's like her little 6 year old cousin took it with a 1 use plastic camera. She's standing there just humoring the kid. - Now what am I not missing there? I couldn't give a ratsass what you had to do to get that shot and I don't care if you spent a million bucks on the pefect set and a special effects unit or had fifty people consulting on how to do it. How many movies do you not like that had 6 months work put into the making?
I don't want your opinion, you want mine! Or was it my praise?

Max I don't think you take criticism very well which is a loss to your advancement. If you ask me to comment I'll tell you what I see not what you want to hear. From all aspects of the photo but whatever aspect I chose to view it from it's my choosing as a critic. I'm not going to romanticise it in anyway to humor your ego. It's purely to give you my point of view for your benefit and not to hurt your feelings in any way.

Personally I like to hear from the people that don't like my shot and add a little something to explain why. Maybe it's a lighting issue, maybe it's the model, set, colour scheme - whatever but I find every time it's those people that make me think the most. I accept what they're saying, I don't get an attitude against them. I see them as an ally and I try to please them, which makes me think in all new directions, and possibly drop what weren't such good ideas after all.

;-)

 

[Alpha]

post

This is just a really non-substantive rant. What advice have you given?

This is not about effort.

You're right. I'm am only open to certain kinds of critique. If you want to give my work a superficial look and then dismiss it off-hand, then no, I don't really care what you have to say. And I'm well within my rights to do that.

If, on the other hand, you want to actually look at a piece for what it is and then critique that, I will seriously take to heart any and all comments. But thus far, nearly everyone has simply said that it's not close enough to pop fashion or its not far enough away, and then stopped. If you don't believe that something in-between is possible or appropriate, or was pulled off, then say so. But at least say why.

I do not have any desire to run out right now and shoot pop fashion or a bastardization of it. That doesn't mean I'm not advancing. You're not really giving me any useful advice at all if all you have to say is that I ought to have done one of those instead.

 

[The Phototron]

Seems to me any comments aren't welcome. Only a certain point of view is welcome, if we don't appreciate it then it's obviously us that's not worthy of the work. I don't care what amount of effort or work goes into a shot. If it's not pleasing to the eye then it's not pleasing. There's all sorts of arty effects and ideas being put in to and added to shots, some work for some people in the audience and some don't.

I could train a monkey to beat a guitar with a hammer and record it and then argue when people don't want to listen to it that "oh you people have no appreciation for the effort I put into training that monkey to beat the guitar with the hammer and you just don't get the thinking behind it of bringing the fusion of Industry and Music together." That's a serious BS attitude.

It's not even about the effort in stake here. Max put it very clearly, people are pointing to the characteristics of his approach as something they don't like. How is that constructive?

"It's too light."
"Well it was shoot with IR in daylight."
"It's still too light."

"Pose look awkward."
"It's intended."
"It still look awkward to me."

See where this is going? Nowhere.

 

[Alpha]

It's not even about the effort in stake here. Max put it very clearly, people are pointing to the characteristics of his approach as something they don't like. How is that constructive?

"It's too light."
"Well it was shoot with IR in daylight."
"It's still too light."

"Pose look awkward."
"It's intended."
"It still look awkward to me."

See where this is going? Nowhere.

Thank you. That's exactly what I meant when I said this:

I do not have any desire to run out right now and shoot pop fashion or a bastardization of it. That doesn't mean I'm not advancing. You're not really giving me any useful advice at all if all you have to say is that I ought to have done one of those instead.

 

[JimmyJaceyMom]

Good lord people. Here's what I see is happening here. Max is happy with his pictures - wonderful. Some poeple do not like them and state why. Max then defends why they are this way or that. He will continue to do so because he defends his art - that is fine. And if in the end he uses the 'who's to say what is art and what's not?' card, then that is what he decides to do. There is no arguing it.

 

[Alpha]

That's not true. I'd love for someone to give some really substantive advice. I'm just waiting. I'd rather not have any argument at all.

Hit me, baby.

 

[nossie]

Re: Max & Phototron

If you want to give my work a superficial look and then dismiss it off-hand, then no, I don't really care what you have to say.

Now you're putting words in everyone's mouth.

I look at 3 and my mind goes blank.
A few orange poles, right.
Using water and reflection, right.
Chick that looks like she's non impressed, right.
Chick in strange choice of pose, right.
Chick in fancy dress standing in ruin, right.
Derelict building, right.
Electricity wires in the view, right.
Using shadows to control light, right.
Nothing blown out, right.

Would it make me stop and read an article in a newspaper? no.
Would I respect the photographer if I was handed this portfolio? no.
Do I enjoy looking at this picture? no.
Putting it all together do I think the idea worked? no.

This is just a really non-substantive rant. What advice have you given?

Again you chose to attack instead of listen to an opinion that differs from your own. You make me think of Heavy Metal fans that hate pop and insist that everything else is siht and we just don't understand what good music is because we don't like Metallica.

So what was I supposed to do exactly? Maybe you can teach me about your point of view. Enlighten me and everyone else in the cleverness of your work. Should I recommend that you use the new super dooper xjs mach50 28stop film? Or the Macro blaster zoom turbo III lens? Or tell the girl to imagine giving birth to a dead baby next time to achieve the ultimate miserable look on her face?

It's not for me to care how you make these pictures. I know nothing about film, for all I know you're using the free roll that you got at the 1 hour service. I know nothing about what ruins mean to you. Or what the expression on the girl's face is supposed to do for that photo. But I can tell you what it means to me after giving it considerable thought - Zilch, it does nothing for me, I can see no story in it nor anything technically brilliant. It's a bin shot.

Now if you'd said that you wanted to achieve a certain style in your shots that might have helped. I could have thought "I don't know anything about the bastardization of pop fashion" and left it for another such as Phototron who seems to have a better understanding of what you're doing.

That's my comment as you originally welcomed. This is my last post on the matter because I don't want to put any energy into any bad vibes. I'm obviously not helping you as I'd hoped. I am not getting into another flame war.

If people want to be vengeful regarding my critique style,

Who has the time for vengeful behaviour? People comment to give you something. I wish that you get more of what you are looking for.



JJMom it's good to have an open mind

 

[Alpha]

Dude, I'm not asking anyone to like the photos. I'm just asking them to look.

 

[wildmaven]

Ok...I've just looked back at the photos, after reading all of this, and I'm still a bit confused as to your intentions. I know you wanted the awkward and stoic look, and you wanted it to make it seem as if the model was receding into the scene. Yet, in pictures 1 and 2, she's soft smiling. In 2, she's looking right into the lens. It's hard to recede when you're engaging the camera. In 5 and 6 she's "making a leg", a typical fashion pose. Your intentions, and her poses, don't go together. Maybe in 3, you could've placed your model between the 2 orange poles, had her put her leg like an extention of the pole, and reflected all 3 in the water. In 5, you could've placed her between those posts, had her stand tall and straight, and reflected all. In 1, you could've placed her all the way at the top of the steps, in the shadows, the wrinkles in her gown mirroring the cracked paint.

 

[Alpha]

Awesome. Thank you.