Trying to get the Fail-Safe (1964) look.

[harmonica]

Here's a clip from the movie:



It's not just about lighting to get this look, it's also about camera settings I think. I tried some tests shooting with the contrast at 0, in the picture profile settings. However, the contrast in this movie is much higher, not just in the lighting but also in the film post processing.

Shooting flat, however, and adding contrast in post does not seem to work. Cause turning up the contrast in post, only takes down the darker areas, but the brigheter areas do not really go brighter. Compared to turning up the contrast in camera, where the brighter areas will go brighter. However, doing this in color makes actor's faces look pale, and sickly perhaps. Does this mean the Fail-Safe look, only looks good in B & W, or can you make this look work in color without making actor's faces so pale at a high contrast? Even if I don't overepose, they still look pale at a high contrast setting. Is this where the make up artist's job comes in, or do I have to fix this paleness in the camera settings or post?

Thanks.

 

[table1349]

It was 1964. They had Technicolor film. They shot the movie in B&W for a reason. That is probably one of the reasons.

 

[harmonica]

So high contrast photography only looks good in B & W then, and not in color pretty much?

 

[unpopular]

No. A lot of this is in how the set was lit as well as how the film was processed. You can't ever expect to get it right if the shadows are in the wrong place. In this case, the lighting is so hyper-stylized, that it's just not going to exist in nature. Also, doing it in camera won't get you anywhere. Because the contrast is so extreme, consider shooting raw if possible, lighting properly and pulling the shadows further than you'd expect. You're going to need to be pretty familiar with curves to accomplish this.

Look into lighting for Film Noir in general, that should be a good starting point. Working in color would be an entirely different can of worms, however. Certainly Noir can be done in color, but it's approach isn't the same.

 

[unpopular]

So high contrast photography only looks good in B & W then, and not in color pretty much?

Absolutely not. However, it's approach is different, and processing high contrast color while controlling saturation and preventing individual channels from blowing out can be challenging.

 

[table1349]

So high contrast photography only looks good in B & W then, and not in color pretty much?

Not necessarily, but it's not going to look the same either.

 

[table1349]

OP Keep in mind that part of the lure of film noir was the low key lighting shot in black and white. It was designed to give that dark look to the film and project a dark mood. Color affects that look and that mood.

 

[harmonica]

Okay thanks. I know it's the lighting and not just the contrast settings in the camera, but I want to get that part right too, without people looking too pale.

But shooting flat and then adding contrast in post does not look the same. In post, adding contrast only affects the dark areas. The bright areas do not get brighter which is what you get when adding contrast in the camera. Also I do not have a camera that shoots in RAW. My DLSR only records in 8 bit, but if you bring down the contrast to flat, then are reducing the data in your contrast, to 6 bit. So data information will be missing by shooting flat.

 

[Derrel]

B&W film was able to handle the extreme lighting ratios that gave film noir its characteristic "look". Color film needed MUCH more fill light, otherwise it looked like utter rubbish, and was basically, unusable. The same situation exists with color slide film and B&W negative film in still photography; color slide film looks awful in many situations if it is lighted using high-contrast and high-ratio lighting setups, but B&W negative film looks better, because it can handle a wider dynamic range without looking like junk.

I think some of today's best, and newest video cams, like the Red series cams and Black Magic Pocket Cinema Camera have 13-stop dynamic range capabilities, and some of the newest color grading software could probably give you a good simulation of this old film noir look.

And realize too--Hollywood films of the early 1960's had VERY experienced lighting directors who had plenty of experience in B&W cinematic lighting, and had fabulous lighting equipment and lots of good grips to make their visions a reality. Those guys came up in the ALL-B&W era.

 

[table1349]

B&W film was able to handle the extreme lighting ratios that gave film noir its characteristic "look". Color film needed MUCH more fill light, otherwise it looked like utter rubbish, and was basically, unusable. The same situation exists with color slide film and B&W negative film in still photography; color slide film looks awful in many situations if it is lighted using high-contrast and high-ratio lighting setups, but B&W negative film looks better, because it can handle a wider dynamic range without looking like junk.

I think some of today's best, and newest video cams, like the Red series cams and Black Magic Pocket Cinema Camera have 13-stop dynamic range capabilities, and some of the newest color grading software could probably give you a good simulation of this old film noir look.

And realize too--Hollywood films of the early 1960's had VERY experienced lighting directors who had plenty of experience in B&W cinematic lighting, and had fabulous lighting equipment and lots of good grips to make their visions a reality. Those guys came up in the ALL-B&W era.

:thumbup: Guys like Ernest Haller, Gregg Toland, Robert Burks and John Alton were master Cinematographers.

 

[harmonica]

Okay thanks. Basically I want a look that is a hybrid of modern color, with old film noir B & W shadows and contrast.

What if I just added more fill light to make the color look good, but I still keep the the contrast set to +4 to sort of look a bit film noir?

 

[unpopular]

Forget the contrast setting on your camera. Just forget it entirely. Don't even touch it. Leave it at Zero and pretend it isn't there.

If you want to get this all right in camera, then get it right with the lighting. In practice (see Derrel's post) you'll need to expose at a slightly more compressed lighting ratio (the amount of light affecting the shadows relative to the hilights) and then pull the shadows in post using the curves tool.

But the contrast dial isn't exactly doing what you think it is here. It's just pushing the hilights and and pulling the shadows by a predetermined factor.

Get it in b/w first, then work on color. But as I said, high contrast color can be unruly, and a simple translation from b/w to color won't give the impression of film noir. It will look more Pulp Fiction than Fail Safe. For color, look to the second half of Vertigo, or for a more recent example, the television show "The Killing" on AMC as examples of how differently color is used in noir style.

 

[harmonica]

Okay thanks. In Pulp Fiction though, the characters did not look that pale though. Unless the film processing has the contrast right in the middle of course. I will leave the contrast right in the middle.

 

[unpopular]

Without an unprocessed example, it's hard to say why your skin tones are coming out pale. Overexposure will cause this, but typically a general increase in contrast will result in redder skin tone, provided it is applied in straight RGB arithmetic.

One way to keep saturation in line is to apply contrast to the luminance of the image, and your camera may very well do this as in some cases it will appear more natural. However, when applied too extremely, it can cause pushes to decrease in saturation, creating a sickly, pale look in skin tone.

Of course, Pulp Fiction was filmed on silver and probably processed traditionally as well, so that's a whole different scenario.

Really though, everything post exposure shouldn't be that difficult if you have a good understanding of curves and what your camera is capable of. The challenge in classic noir is in shadow placement.

 

[JoeW]

Okay thanks. Basically I want a look that is a hybrid of modern color, with old film noir B & W shadows and contrast.

What if I just added more fill light to make the color look good, but I still keep the the contrast set to +4 to sort of look a bit film noir?

Several thoughts:

1. I get you want a noir look with high contrast but in color. That's kind of like saying "I want to shoot porn but make it a family portrait you could show your aunt." Might be possible but some elements are in direct contradiction. Noir as a look is almost always black and white b/c it's much more stark and is more effective with shadows. It's the nature of the beast. As others have pointed out, if you underexpose with color it's just not going to irk as effectively.

2. Digital doesn't handle contrast as well as film. DSLRs have gotten better. But film negatives trump digital when it comes to high contrast situations (unless you're doing to do a lot of post-production work).

3. Part of the noir look is also a function of lighting (so stuff that would typically be a no-no...like raccoon eyes so people look much more gaunt) and not just contrast. It's also about a host of things...filming in dark places, at night, often with water on the pavement (so there is some glare and reflection). It's damn hard to get a good noir feel on a sunny day wearing a colorful sun dress. Props and clothing (and even characters) help noir work (or not). Cigarette smoke is often associated with noir. If you put a cute model with a girl next door smile and lovely colorful clothes and shoot her with high contrast in extreme lighting it's not going to look noir. Noir is more than just a contrast and lighting function, it's about an atmosphere and appearance.

4. Fill light is probably going to minimize or counteract the noir look. Look at good noir films or photos and there is very little fill. There's a lot of shadow. Adding fill light is probably going to work against you. If you don't like the look of the color in the photos than you should switch the colors (different shade of clothing, repaint the walls) rather than manipulating it with light. And ultimately, you're still going to be better off going with B&W if a noir look is what you're truly after.