unimpressed with RAW

Alex_B

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"what if your house burns down?" Then it's sods law!


I store 3 of my HDDs over 100 miles from my home ;)
 

nossie

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I store 3 of my HDDs over 100 miles from my home ;)

Why?
Uhm... I mean more like is it easy for you to do that so you just do it coz it's a no brainer or do you go to extra effort to protect your files?

I was thinking of setting up a massive online dump so people could drop their files there as another convenient safety measure but that needs zillions of terrabytes but maybe humble beginnings?
 

jon_k

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Jon_k I accept your challenge! Post what you can do from the RAW.

I don't have the original RAW for that picture.

Let's work on this example.

I set this image to raw+jpeg.

The image below is the direct JPEG output from the camera, but resized in CS3 with unsharp mask applied. The off-white balance is unworkable in this image.
wbchallange.jpg


This is a processed RAW image. White balance fixed with white balance tool in RAW mode. The default color temp was 4250, the corrected temperature will be undisclosed.
wbcorrected.jpg


If you can fix the bad JPEG I'll be impressed. I fixed mine with the click of a button, no doubt your methods will be more work and complex. However, if you can correct the white balance and have accurate color rendition, I'll surely be impressed. Some people really know how to work with the limitations of jpeg.
 

Garbz

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I would respectfully disagree.

With all due counter respect I would disagree again. I have thrown away hundreds of CDs and DVDs over the last 6 years since I used to be a very pedantic storer of data. You don't even need to try and play them, just hold them to the light and look through the spots where the dyes have corroded away. The newest and fanciest player would be unable to read this. There has been some good research in recent years about this subject too where people have actually mapped the readability of new and aged media from many manufacturers.

The conclusions were quite solid, optical is not by a long shot something you would use more then 2-3 years without risk. And the worst performers were those Verbatims which had the logo printed into the reflective surface. The actual logo was the first to corrode. This also isn't restricted to CDR or DVDR I've thrown away some original CDs too.

Now I have never had an offline HDD die on me. I still use a 12gb Quantum fireball to store the primary windows images of 2 computers in this house, and that drive is VERY old. Think UDMA33 with the 20 conductor cable old, possibly older. Like Alex we also have some sensitive documents which are stored on a HDD kept in his desk at work so if there's a fire here that isn't lost.

Finally there's the recovery issue if you have something you really want. Hit a CD with a hammer and it's gone. Hit a HDD with a hammer or put it in a fire and while in these cases you can't do much yourself, recovery houses can still easily get the data off.

Mind you I am in no way trying to get you to change your opinion. If you've had such luck with optical storage then good I hope you keep it. My experience was just the opposite and I have a different system which is far more robust for me.
 

nossie

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Hi Jon.
I had to leave some difference otherwise you could think I just posted back your image. I could let a smidgin of blue back in and the join becomes almost completely invisible to my bionic eye.
Mine is on top/ yours on the bottom. (prime suspect to be quoted out of context)

One click Vs time and skill needed in photoshop - Yes you're absolutely correct, it's seconds to adjust RAW for whitebalance but also know that just like with RAW there are one click tools for fixing jpeg too since all it does is mess with the levels. I think the canon software that I got with the 350D does a one click WB fix for jpeg too but I don't have it installed.
In this case I was working in Photoshop CS3. I put a levels adjustment layer onto the challenge image and then a part of your balanced image to work against. Then I just simply work with the levels one channel at a time to match it up, which is really what the one click method does for you.

The point?... The point is don't just bin a JPEG because you assume it can't be brought back. Probably directed more to people that aren't so adept at working with images.

But going back to the thread it is another example of how working with RAW leaves you better off.


wbattempt.jpg
 

jon_k

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Really impressive work Nossie.

Not bad at all.

I suppose JPEG is a worthy format, although with the RAW is does cut some steps out of post processing. I'm sure someone with enough skill could get by with JPEG in any circumstance vs RAW.

For me, using RAW does simplify my work flow.

Thanks for the good example.
 

JerryPH

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I am happy for some of the other (read easier) picture post processing apps out there for now... my PS skill level is nill until I purchase my version of CS3 and start to work with it... then I have to start getting into that app slowly.

Garbz, as for life expectancies of media, yeah, we will have to agree to disagree on this, but then again if everyone shared my opionion, I would be about 10Gs a year poorer, so I can live with that. :lol:
 

jon_k

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I am happy for some of the other (read easier) picture post processing apps out there for now... my PS skill level is nill until I purchase my version of CS3 and start to work with it... then I have to start getting into that app slowly.

Garbz, as for life expectancies of media, yeah, we will have to agree to disagree on this, but then again if everyone shared my opionion, I would be about 10Gs a year poorer, so I can live with that. :lol:

I think CD's have poor life expectancy's too. Floppy and other magnetic media have a longer lifespan than any CD and especially DVD.

Reason being, magnetic storage can retain its magnetic properties much longer than CD/DVD's.

CD/DVD's have several factors contributing to their destruction. The cause can vary from oxidation of the reflective surface to UV light damaging and separating the adhesive used to keep the layers of the disk together.

The fact is... a live hard disk system with an active RAID configuration will outlive any CD/DVD archives.
 

Dave_D

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Mui, back to the basic issue of sharpness. Are you using a tripod when you shoot (especially since you mentioned "low light")? Just curious.
 

Sideburns

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I think CD's have poor life expectancy's too. Floppy and other magnetic media have a longer lifespan than any CD and especially DVD.

Reason being, magnetic storage can retain its magnetic properties much longer than CD/DVD's.

CD/DVD's have several factors contributing to their destruction. The cause can vary from oxidation of the reflective surface to UV light damaging and separating the adhesive used to keep the layers of the disk together.

The fact is... a live hard disk system with an active RAID configuration will outlive any CD/DVD archives.

unless the RAID array is quite large and with plenty of redundancy...and is maintained regularly....I will have to disagree.

a CD can last up to 50 years.

A "live" harddrive will not last anywhere near that. ever.

If you store something on tape drives, or a HDD and then never used it until you needed it...then yes...they would last much longer.
 

JerryPH

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I have clients that use a special tape backup who's tapes have a guaranteed 200 year life-span. if data is lost, the comany pays for it.

Now, if the company will be there in 200 years, who knows... and not many people here are willing to pay $5000 for a tape backup solution. :wink:
 

Alex_B

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Why?
Uhm... I mean more like is it easy for you to do that so you just do it coz it's a no brainer or do you go to extra effort to protect your files?

It is easy for me to do, and it gives extra safety. you never know if your hosue burns down, or if thieves find their way in.
 

Garbz

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The fact is... a live hard disk system with an active RAID configuration will outlive any CD/DVD archives.

Lightning strike not withstanding :).

I use a RAID1 configuration myself but it's not designed in a way to keep the dataset live. RAID1 can fail even more so if identical HDDs are used as they will reach their MTTF (mean time to failure) at the same time. I've setup a RAID1 array that if one drive fails as reported by mtab the system goes down like a brick. Not even a proper shutdown, just force umount all partitions and power-off.

Intel has released a good research document about the MTTF of RAID arrays based on their size, the number of disks, and the configuration. Taking into account standard consumer HDDs a 3 drive RAID5 setup (2 drives + 1 parity) did not make data purely redundant over the period they calculated (25 years I think it was) and still had a failure rate in the high 20s %. The reason being eventually 2 disks will fail at once.

A new member on this forum found out about that problem recently. I saw a post about this today. Both of his external drives failed at the same time. And in this case I am going to agree with Jerry, a system with a total uptime even RAID1 or worse RAID5 will not last 50 years. Eventually you'll get multiple failures at the same time.

Mind you so far I've lost more to dead optical media. My RAID1 array has been going for 6 years now with 1 drive failure and another expected very soon, but no lost data.
 

ksmattfish

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i am finding there is very very little difference in the actual quality of the image.

4048 x 3038 RAW verses 4048 x 3038 JPEG

is there no clear winner?

Raw is processed with out-of-camera software. Jpeg is processed with in-camera software. Out-of-camera software such as Photoshop is more sophisticated and offers more choices than current in-camera software, but you have to have the skills to take advantage of those choices. It's entirely possible that a photographer may not need those choices. The better image will probably result from the work flow the photographer is most experienced with.

If one file format was clearly better than the other then: 1) you wouldn't have a choice, the manufacturers would only offer the superior file format, and 2) there wouldn't be RAW vs. JPEG threads posted every 30 seconds.
 

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