What would change your mind?

[molested_cow]

Cameras are just tools.
If lose my DSLR, I've got two SLRs. If I lose my SLRs, I will just go back to my pencil and brushes. If I lose my pencil and brushes, I still got my memories and imagination.

On another note, I always wonder why have people gotten more and more used to listening to music on-the-go? Is it because of mp3? Is it iPod? Or is it just more hip looking to be seen with white ear buds?
To me, if I really enjoy a song or piece of music, I'll remember it and sing it in my mind. No need battery, no need hardware, ultra sustainable as well!

 

[dakkon76]

My guess is that one of the articles that was talking about new camera tech someone is developing spurred your imagination. The article I read talked about capturing all strands of light coming from a particular POV, thus taking the DOF problem out of the equation and allowing you to change your depth of field and focal point. This does not, however, change your perspective - this is impossible to do (right now). However, even with this new technology, you still have to decide what depth of field and focal point you want - you'll just be able to step through your possibilities in post, similar to how we can change our tone curve and other aspects of our RAW files.

It's still going to come down to artistic interpretation in order to render the image. You can hand a newbie a $5000 setup... hell, you can even hand them your RAW files - and they still won't have a clue how to get the best possible end-product. Regardless of how much technology we try to add to something, the part about photography, as with art in general, that appeals to every observer is how the human behind the medium chose to capture the scene.

 

[tecmic]

I wasn't talking about losing my DSLR but it being replaced! If I lost it I've got insurance. 'Pencil and brushes'...the reason I take photos is primarily to select shots for watercolour subjects! (I paint watercolours)

The items we consider to be technology are aides, mostly created to improve our everyday lives. Can you think of a piece of technology that is not a 'tool'.

The 'digital revolution', for want of a better description, has changed and generated new habits simply because it's now possible. How many people do you see walking down the high street with a mobile phone stuck to their ear? (I can never believe they have so much to talk about) Ditto MP3 music 'on the move'. It's possible so, mostly the younger generations, do it.

 

[Infinite_Day]

On another note, I always wonder why have people gotten more and more used to listening to music on-the-go? Is it because of mp3? Is it iPod? Or is it just more hip looking to be seen with white ear buds?
To me, if I really enjoy a song or piece of music, I'll remember it and sing it in my mind. No need battery, no need hardware, ultra sustainable as well!

I've gone back to vinyl. Sounds better anyway. Technology hasn't helped the world. The global job market is in the dump because so many things that used to be made by hand are now made by robots. As far as those kids with cell phones glued to their head - they're detuned and emotionally detached from the world. Most of the kids in schools today can't even write the english language. The idea of "social media" is laughable. It's really "anti-social media".

At any rate - the lytro thing - it's a gimmick like everything else. If you market it to make people think they have to have it then it will sell. Apple is the master of this - people own iPhones, iPads and iPods which are all basically different versions of the SAME EXACT DEVICE yet because they're trendy Apple now has more liquid assets than our government. A sad state of affairs if you ask me. It will be priced out of reach for pretty much all of us anyway.

 

[dakkon76]

Cameras are just tools.
On another note, I always wonder why have people gotten more and more used to listening to music on-the-go? Is it because of mp3? Is it iPod? Or is it just more hip looking to be seen with white ear buds?
To me, if I really enjoy a song or piece of music, I'll remember it and sing it in my mind. No need battery, no need hardware, ultra sustainable as well!

I say it's video game, as well as kids being more and more neglected and allowed to be socially withdrawn... thus when they enter out into the general public, they're in their own little world.

 

[Tomasko]

The arguments are mostly totally valid. The human does contribute the artistic interpretation and will continue to. I'm not suggesting that this will be done by the camera but that the camera will make all the adjustments required to produce the best possible image.


My Autopilot example was intended to illustrate how technology changed what was thought to be impossible. BTW, Pilots are not crashing planes left, right and centre, in fact aircraft accidents are a fraction of the number of automobile crashes for the same timescale. That's a classic and emotive response that misrepresents the facts. As for me watching too much sci fi, I suggest you spend some time bringing yourself up-to-date with what's happening in the photographic world at a technical level.

Why would we ignore new technologies that will make photography even more exciting? I don't understand this automatic resistance to new ideas...is it too much of a challenge to the status quo and man's control of the skill? Do you think that the current SLR technology is going last forever?

You still don't get it, do you?
Yes, technology is moving forward. Yes, latest devices can make your life easier. But what does it mean really? You're talking as if it will make your work or your tools useless. That's a complete nonsense. Photography isn't that much about technology itself or tools, but it's mostly about knowing the limitations of your gear. It's about using the situation and the gear as effectively as possible to produce great images, artistically and technically.

Pilots are not crashing planes left, right and centre, in fact aircraft accidents are a fraction of the number of automobile crashes for the same timescale.

Well, and this is a nice classical intentional misinterpretation of statistics. If you want to compare number of crashes, don't forget to mention ratio cars vs aircrafts, ok?

I don't understand this automatic resistance to new ideas...

It isn't resistance to new ideas, but a resistance to silly opinions. You really believe, that a great photograph is about looking at a thing at different angles? Or about sharpness? Noise reduction? Oh come on. BEST photos out there were made in film era. Why do you think most photographers start learning about photography from OLD books? Why do you think that so many new "pros" out there are mediocre at best?

I suggest you spend some time bringing yourself up-to-date with what's happening in the photographic world at a technical level

Don't worry about my knowledge, I've heard about that camera months ago. However, so far there have been only words and some generic examples. WOW. Almost as big wow as with 3D technology. Did you know, that many people suffer headaches thanks to the current 3D technology? Guys in a shop selling you latest devices won't tell you that.

To sum it up, don't confuse "great images" with "sharp images". There are other, more important factors.

If you want to buy new tools, by all means, do that! Just don't forget they are just mere tools. Right now you sound like you judge images only by their technical quality. Don't see a reason why should one feel intimidated by a fact, that your friend/neighbor/anyone bought a new camera.

 

[tecmic]

I've got to agree with a lot you say guys but we're veering away from the thread's subject!

Apart from any benefits that new invention brings, hanging on to the past becomes unsustainable eventually. Things become incompatible, unsupported, irreplaceable and now, I just wouldn't accept the reproduction that dragging a stylus along a groove in a vinyl disc produces, the storage space required or the fragility of the medium and not least, the bulky equipment required to play them. I haven't even mentioned the convenience of downloading individual tracks and not being forced to buy the complete album.

'Technology helping the world'. How we use technology determines it's usefulness...blaming technology for the World's woes is somewhat misguided. We invent it, we use it, we decide what it does. Each individual parent is responsible for their offspring(s) Not the government, not the local authority, not their school teachers, not the police! If we don't teach them values, manners and respect, we are to blame!

Dakkon, yes, it was a news release by Lytro, the company producing the LF sensor that got me interested. You make a lot of sense and I've twice now in this thread, totally agreed with the proposal that artistic interpretation cannot be performed by technology, at least not now! Come back in 50-60 years.:er:

Right! Back to cameras...so the sensor at the heart of modern DSLR's is a gimmick? The new Light Field sensor is a development of that technology and replaces it in the camera, so if you discard the new invention so easily you must also include the current technology in that judgement.

 

[tecmic]

Tomasko, mon ami... perhaps I don't get it but if that's the case then you are certainly up there with me.

Accepting the artistic interpretation input by the photographer and I do! The entire objective of camera manufacturers, for some while now, has been to make the process of taking photographs...easier! How? by making the camera cleverer. Artistic interpretation is still required for those 'classic' shots and it will be a long time before any technology can do that.
For the average guy, pressing a button is all he wants to do. His shots won't make the local art gallery but he doesn't care, they are for his family album and if he can manipulate them, post shot, so much the better.

'Resistance to silly opinions'. I don't remember claiming that photography was all about camera settings, although most pros will tell you they get the best out of their kit by adjusting them. I paint and sell watercolours so have some idea about image configuration and artistic interpretation!

'Why do I think so many new pros are mediocre at best?' I don't! That's just your opinion.

Aircraft crashes: And we'll include factors like the complexity of flying as opposed to the simplicity of driving a car, the highly emotive reactions aircraft accidents invoke whereas we accept the thousands of fatalities that occur annually on our roads.

 

[Tomasko]

Tomasko, mon ami... perhaps I don't get it but if that's the case then you are certainly up there with me.

Accepting the artistic interpretation input by the photographer and I do! The entire objective of camera manufacturers, for some while now, has been to make the process of taking photographs...easier! How? by making the camera cleverer. Artistic interpretation is still required for those 'classic' shots and it will be a long time before any technology can do that.
For the average guy, pressing a button is all he wants to do. His shots won't make the local art gallery but he doesn't care, they are for his family album and if he can manipulate them, post shot, so much the better.

Thought we aren't talking about "average guys". Putting all your statements together (from posts in this thread) creates some interesting image... You're really threatened by average guys who doesn't care for artistic values? Or maybe I'm just tired and can't see your point...

'Resistance to silly opinions'. I don't remember claiming that photography was all about camera settings, although most pros will tell you they get the best out of their kit by adjusting them. I paint and sell watercolours so have some idea about image configuration and artistic interpretation!

No, but you're claiming, that you feel threatened by some friend, who may one day bring some high tech camera and you'll have doubts about your gear. If you really understand art, I can't put these two things together.

'Why do I think so many new pros are mediocre at best?' I don't! That's just your opinion.

Believe me, not only mine opinion.

Aircraft crashes: And we'll include factors like the complexity of flying as opposed to the simplicity of driving a car, the highly emotive reactions aircraft accidents invoke whereas we accept the thousands of fatalities that occur annually on our roads.

You were comparing car crashes vs aircraft crashes over some period of time. Number of cars/aicraft is a vital factor to any stats like this.

 

[tecmic]

I think you're tired and so am I, of this exchange. Let's agree to disagree.

 

[Infinite_Day]

Apart from any benefits that new invention brings, hanging on to the past becomes unsustainable eventually. Things become incompatible, unsupported, irreplaceable and now, I just wouldn't accept the reproduction that dragging a stylus along a groove in a vinyl disc produces, the storage space required or the fragility of the medium and not least, the bulky equipment required to play them. I haven't even mentioned the convenience of downloading individual tracks and not being forced to buy the complete album.

Most real auidophiles will tell you that vinyl produces a more tonally accurate and pleasing sound than digital can. As far a fragility goes - your hard drive/ipod/etc. can take a crap at any moment. I'm not saying technology doesn't have it's place - it just doesn't have to be the be-all-end-all for everything. Think about all the crafts that are going to be lost once the current generation reaches middle-age and their predecessors are gone. Kids today don't typically have the patience to learn a craft. Maybe I'm just one of those crotchety old farts who thinks about things differently, though. I think my point about it is this - the lytro camera - it makes it so that you don't have to think about focus/depth of field when composing a shot. Thus, it makes the user that much lazier and that's typically not a good thing in my eyes when it comes to raising the level of a craft. For the average Joe who just wants to get good snapshots? Well, I suspect it will be some time before that average Joe will be able to afford the technology so it's going to be a rich kid's plaything for a while.

One other thing - the complexity of flying. A simple plane isn't necessarily substantially more difficult to operate than a manual transmission car or even a motorcycle. It's just that the margin for error is much smaller. You can survive many car crashes - you mess up in a plane and you're just SOL most of the time.

 

[ClickAddict]

You guys keep saying it wont replace the human artistic talent, and I certainly agree, but I think where technology is helping and will no doubt help even more so in the future is the Artistic with no technical abilities produce the images he wants. Imagine a visionary, a true artist. He looks at a scene and thinks to himself. Wow, if I could just capture this moment, the light coming down... I'd want focus on.... He picks up his camera which he just bought recently and plays with it for hours trying to figure out the right settings to get what he envisions in his mind. Shooting hundreds of shots before finally getting it right. (Perhaps an exageration but you get the idea) Now imagine the same artist, picks up his new "Camera X", takes one shot, goes to his computer, it produces a screen of 20 images, he clicks the one closest to what he wants, and the computer pops up another 20 images even more refined. Another click, more images. He sees the one he likes. Voila. A camera that could in essense take simultaneously 100s of pictures at various settings within a fraction of a second giving him the chance to review later. (Not coming tomorrow, but 1-2 decades from now? Not too far fetched)
Yes he still has to know composition, but it removes all thoughts of DOF, exposure and the like as this is all done by picking the one you want later. Will it turn every day joes into master photographers. No. But it will eliminate a ton of "really bad" photos they take. (cant help them from cutting of uncle Buck's head, but will let them not worry about wb and such) And it could turn alot of artistic people who would shy away from "all the buttons" of todays DSLRs into potentially excellent photographers. Will it change the industry? Almost all industries evolve, photography is no different.

 

[tecmic]

Right! You said it, ClickAddict.