Which route would you go?

[Tighearnach]

I have heard that the Canon 100 f/2.8 works as a great portrait lens although with a crop sensor you would need to be standing well back for many shots. But your 18-5o would help out there when indoors etc. There is also the canon 60mm macro to consider.

 

[jubb]

I need a 580exII so that's my vote.

 

[iolair]

Incidentally, I got two flashes for next to nothing (you can find basic units on eBay for less than £10 delivered)

What flash units are you speaking of if you don't mind me asking?

In principle, I'm not fussy ... anything old with a hotshoe. Preferably something from the film SLR era, they seem to go much cheaper. I actually bought one film EOS dirt cheap (who wants a film camera, after all - only a few enthusiasts) to get the case, flash unit and lens that were bundled with it. In the "Film Camera Accessories" section on eBay, there's quite a lot of okay stuff that will work with D-SLRs.

I'm not bothered about the power - most are without manual controls but I can accommodate that with how I place them, or lower the effective power by using a light modifier to even them out.

Here are a few examples of the kind of thing:
flash sunpak sp200 auto 200 camera on eBay (end time 17-Dec-09 01:03:03 GMT)

Canon speed light flash 199A with case and instruct on eBay (end time 17-Dec-09 10:10:05 GMT)

Cobra D400 Dedictaed Flash Unit for Pentax SLR Camera on eBay (end time 17-Dec-09 20:05:23 GMT)

NIKON SPEEDLIGHT SB - 20 AF DEDICATED TTL FLASH UNIT on eBay (end time 17-Dec-09 19:13:29 GMT)

Some have voltages that make them unsuitable for connecting to a digital camera directly, but I only use them via my remote triggers so it's not a problem.

FWIW, the two currently in my camera bag are a Sunpak 888AFZ and a Jessops 280AFC.

 

[Derrel]

The Nikon SB-20 iolair shows on eBay auction is actually a very unusual, cleverly-designed flash; its bounce and zoom head action is unlike *any* other flash I have ever owned; the flash has three different "filters", and it rotates the flash and reflector using a small thumb-operated tape on the side of the "cylinder".

28/35/85mm are the three flash head settings, and the flash offers five different manual power modes. It's a small-bodied flash,and most were used by amateurs, not professionals. I bought one for $20 a few years ago. It also has a PC outlet on it!

Nikon Autofocus Flash Model: SB-20 Speedlight

85mm lens indoors--great for head and shoulders shots, maybe half-body shots, but you do need to have some working distance between you and your subjects

EDIT: 233965 Vivitar 285HV Non-Dedicated Shoe Mount Flash with a Maximum Guide Number of 140 @ ISO 100

Vivitar 285HV flash, $89.95 with free shipping from Adorama

233965 Vivitar 285HV Non-Dedicated Shoe Mount Flash with a Maximum Guide Number of 140 @ ISO 100
The Return of a Classic"

 

[thebeatles]

Incidentally, I got two flashes for next to nothing (you can find basic units on eBay for less than £10 delivered)

What flash units are you speaking of if you don't mind me asking?

In principle, I'm not fussy ... anything old with a hotshoe. Preferably something from the film SLR era, they seem to go much cheaper. I actually bought one film EOS dirt cheap (who wants a film camera, after all - only a few enthusiasts) to get the case, flash unit and lens that were bundled with it. In the "Film Camera Accessories" section on eBay, there's quite a lot of okay stuff that will work with D-SLRs.

I'm not bothered about the power - most are without manual controls but I can accommodate that with how I place them, or lower the effective power by using a light modifier to even them out.

Here are a few examples of the kind of thing:
flash sunpak sp200 auto 200 camera on eBay (end time 17-Dec-09 01:03:03 GMT)

Canon speed light flash 199A with case and instruct on eBay (end time 17-Dec-09 10:10:05 GMT)

Cobra D400 Dedictaed Flash Unit for Pentax SLR Camera on eBay (end time 17-Dec-09 20:05:23 GMT)

NIKON SPEEDLIGHT SB - 20 AF DEDICATED TTL FLASH UNIT on eBay (end time 17-Dec-09 19:13:29 GMT)

Some have voltages that make them unsuitable for connecting to a digital camera directly, but I only use them via my remote triggers so it's not a problem.

FWIW, the two currently in my camera bag are a Sunpak 888AFZ and a Jessops 280AFC.

The Nikon SB-20 iolair shows on eBay auction is actually a very unusual, cleverly-designed flash; its bounce and zoom head action is unlike *any* other flash I have ever owned; the flash has three different "filters", and it rotates the flash and reflector using a small thumb-operated tape on the side of the "cylinder".

28/35/85mm are the three flash head settings, and the flash offers five different manual power modes. It's a small-bodied flash,and most were used by amateurs, not professionals. I bought one for $20 a few years ago. It also has a PC outlet on it!

Nikon Autofocus Flash Model: SB-20 Speedlight

85mm lens indoors--great for head and shoulders shots, maybe half-body shots, but you do need to have some working distance between you and your subjects

EDIT: 233965 Vivitar 285HV Non-Dedicated Shoe Mount Flash with a Maximum Guide Number of 140 @ ISO 100

Vivitar 285HV flash, $89.95 with free shipping from Adorama

233965 Vivitar 285HV Non-Dedicated Shoe Mount Flash with a Maximum Guide Number of 140 @ ISO 100
The Return of a Classic"

So all of these flash units could be used as slaves with a cheap transmitter on the T1i hot shoe? Everything listed here would be compatible?

 

[thebeatles]

...There is also the canon 60mm macro to consider.

I have been looking at this lens as well. If I could sell my sigma 18-200 for a decent price, I would buy this and suck it up until I could get a wide angle prime. I don't really shoot action or animals and I certainly wont be shooting professionally (weddings,) so I am starting to think I don't even want a telephoto. I may post the sigma for sale/trade on this forum come Christmas. Anyone interested?

 

[iolair]

So all of these flash units could be used as slaves with a cheap transmitter on the T1i hot shoe? Everything listed here would be compatible?

Should be. The hot shoe is a standard - the flash is fired by an electrical connection between the centre contact and the side contacts. (They may also have other connections used for more advanced features by certain cameras - you WON'T get the advanced features working with a cheap transmitter though).

I use the CTR-301P wireless controllers with my vintage flashes with absolutely no problems. Just check it has a standard hotshoe connection and you're fine.

 

[Wolverinepwnes]

get the flash, you already have a prime 1.8

 

[photograham]

Did you make a decision yet?

 

[Green Li]

Flash sets you FREE! I'd go with the flash.

 

[thebeatles]

Did you make a decision yet?

Not yet. I am going to wait until I get the camera next week so I can better asses my needs. I am thinking about taking the advice of some people who posted here and purchase an inexpensive flash setup. I think I will also sell the sigma 18-200 and buy a wide-angle prime. With the money leftover, I hope to pick up a macro to round off the setup. I figured the 28mm 1.8 usm would be nice for the wide angle and the 60mm 2.8 usm macro would be good for macro but that is a bit of money for a beginner to spend on lens. I saw the Tokina 35mm 2.8 macro lens recently and was interested, however, I have not been able to find a lot of feedback/reviews/pictures from this specific lens. Would that effectively kill 2 birds with one stone? Does anyone here use Tokina? Is a 35mm macro pointless?

 

[Overread]

I did a little search and found a few reviews:
Tokina AF 35mm f/2.8 AT-X M35 PRO DX | Tokina | Lenses | Review

FM Reviews - AT-X M35 PRO DX

edit - found a fullsized shot here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mdstoop/4049219519/sizes/o/


The important thing is that the reviews state the minimum focusing distance for this lens is 14cm however that is the distance from the subject to the camera sensor, not the front of the lens - that is the called the working distance and in most cases its not a quoted distance as it has little effect on the shot == but in macro work its a very important distance to know. This is is because of two factors.

1) Insects - if you are not intending to shoot insects then this is not a concern, but the closer you are to the subject the more chance you have of spooking the insect and thus losing your shot. Idealy a lens of at least 90mm in focal length (or more) is recomended for macro work with insects because focal length determins the minimum focus (and thus working distance) of the lens. Lenses in the 60mm to 70mm** are also on the market in macro and tend to be the more budget friendly, but their working distances are shorter by far, not impossible to work with, but a might be harder to master.



2) Lens shadowing - important for lighting considerations and is something that the user review in the second link brings up. Especailly if your working with flash (which is often the case with macro, espescaily if your handholding). This is when the lens itself starts to cast a shadow over your subject - again a tricky thing with insects and something you have to consider carefully with your lighting choices.


Another point which is more geared at this lens is the background blur effect (bokeh as it has come to be called by many). For most a creamy blurred background is the desired effect and the longer the focal length of a macro lens the more blurred the background will be. The 60-70mm options still do a good job of background blur; but when you start looking at the wide angle macro lenses you begin to have the background becoming a slightly more defined element. I did have a link (somewhere) where someone showed this effect with a series of macro lenses and shots - but I can't find it.

As a final point (because this often catches and confuses people) a true macro lens (with the 35mm is) achive a macro ratio of 1:1 which means the subject in real life is reflected onto the camera sensor at life size. So a 1mm object will have a 1mm reflection on the camera sensor. Because of this when focused at 1:1 any macro lens (on the same sized camera sensor) will give you the very same subject framing - be it a 35mm or a 300mm. Differences though will be as mentioned - the 300mm will allow you to focus from further off and have increased blur of the background. An additional point (which is often hotly debated) is that the longer the focal length the less depth of field there will be (area of a shot in focus) at a fixed aperture - as far as I can tell with macro this is somewhat true, but the amount gained/lost is very tiny and makes rather little difference in the end shot.

** there are also some 50mm options on the market but they tend to be (on the whole) very budget line options and of poorer build quality. Some (like hte canon 50mm macro) are not even proper (1:1) macro lenses and need an adaptor to get to 1:1 - at which point 50mm+adaptor is more in cost than an EFS60mm macro or a 70mm sigma macro (since the sigma 70mm is a fullframe comptable lens)

edit - the following article might be of interest- scroll down and it has a table with minimum focusing distances and working distances for different focal lengths:
Juza Nature Photography

This is mostly true but there are some newer lenses on the market which are starting to change things - namly the new Tamron 60mm macro which has a minimum focusing distance more similar to a 100mm lens.

edit: I found an example of wide angle macro shots:
Unno_2
not hte best macro I have seen, but it gives you an idea of the effect - note that some of them have been taken with a fisheye lens so there is more distortion effect going on than would happen with the 35mm - its more to show the increased presence of the background in the shot that the shorter focal length macro lens helps to achive

 

[thebeatles]

Thanks for the detailed reply overread! :thumbup: I learn something new everyday here.

BTW: Just looked at your flickr briefly and was wondering what lens you used for this photo

Hope you don't mind that I posted your photo here. If you wan't me to take it off, let me know.

 

[Overread]

No problem - I think it might even be posted here somewhere in its own thread

As what I used I used a 70mm macro plus a 1.4Teleconverter (both sigma brand) though I don't recally how far into the focus distance I was for this shot (ie I might have been able to get far closer). I also used a 580EX2 speedlite with a lumiquest softbox on an offcamera flashcord to light the waterdrop (light was locted below the drop aiming up - resting on my foot at the time).
However its not the shot I was idealy after and lighting reflected subject rather than the water drop has been suggested to me as a possible method of getting good lighting without highlight problems. (big white spot on the bottom of the drop).

However for a shot like this I could have used a 150mm macro + 1.4TC (which I also have) just as welll - however at the time I was handholding both camera and flash so opted for the far lighter 70mm - I can just about use the 150mm with one hand but not for that long.

 

[Dao]

I have a Canon 100mm macro lens and sometimes I wish I have a longer focal length lens especially for insect type shots. So I may add a teleconverter to it in the future. So I do not think I will go anything shorter than that such as the 60mm macro.

As for the flash, I have 3 Vivitar 285Hv flashes bought used for $50 each. And trigger them with a YN RF trigger and receivers. I mount them to a Manfrotto stands and modified the light with umbrellas or softbox. (or just bare flash) And it works pretty well.

As Derrel mentioned, with the help of digital camera, you can review the photo right away and adjust the settings accordingly.

At this point, I do not own any TTL flash. I had a old Canon flash 420ez I usually use it as a on camera flash. After I learned how to use it, I do not really need a TTL flash. (I am not a wedding photographer of course). I roughly know what I need to set on the flash and the camera. All I need is adjust the settings on the flash and the camera based on my own experience (indoor or outdoor as fill flash) and fire a few shots and manually adjust the settings as needed. I think for non-professional work, it is good enough for me.

So if you can find a used good flash for a good price, go for it. If you don't like it, chances are you can sell it back for what you paid for. i.e. Vivitar 285HV flash are so popular that it often sold pretty quick on Craigslist here. The last one I bought, the seller told me there were few other people wanted to buy it as well for $50.