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Why not start with Med. format?

Ok.. Ill put my neck on the block here.
But just tell me something.

Why is it that someone who wishes to learn photography or step up to a "better" camera shouldn't start with a medium or Large Format.
Granted the film cost, but all in all, a MF or LF set up to start in many instances is far cheaper for equipment, and forces a person to learn the process and be more specific on their shots.
"Better for what?" has to come into the discussion. Has anyone ever thought, e.g., "If only Cartier Bresson had used a 4X5"? or "I wish Ansel Adams had used a small, fast dslr with a huge capacity memory card"?
 
Ok.. Ill put my neck on the block here.
But just tell me something.

Why is it that someone who wishes to learn photography or step up to a "better" camera shouldn't start with a medium or Large Format.
Granted the film cost, but all in all, a MF or LF set up to start in many instances is far cheaper for equipment, and forces a person to learn the process and be more specific on their shots.

I started photography with my dad's Kodak Medalist II. I was eight or nine.

When I restarted with film about five years ago, it was with a Mamiya 645J, figuring MF negs had higher MP than my Fuji XPro1. (I am also fortunate to have a local lab, Moto Photo in Paramus NJ, who processes 120).

Yes, start with 120, ideally 645. A Mamiya 645J, for example, had aperture priority auto exposure and pretty much handles the same way a Nikon FE does, but with a much larger negative. 35mm is a VERY lo-fi format.
 
Ok.. Ill put my neck on the block here.
But just tell me something.

Why is it that someone who wishes to learn photography or step up to a "better" camera shouldn't start with a medium or Large Format.
Granted the film cost, but all in all, a MF or LF set up to start in many instances is far cheaper for equipment, and forces a person to learn the process and be more specific on their shots.
I now realize why I prefer "Ugly Hedgehog" to this forum.
 
We are humans. Our ancestors put on clothes and lit fires because it was more comfortable than toughing it out. They hunted with spears because it was easier and resulted in more food than hunting with a club. They learned to distribute tasks because it required less brain power than doing and knowing everything themselves. (Look it up: our brains have been shrinking for the last 40,000 years as we have become more civilized and spread the knowledge and tasks around.)

It just wouldn't be natural if most of us, and especially the serious ones, went back to running around naked, clubbing our photos with MF cameras and processing them ourselves, would it?

I actually started with MF. It was a Kodak Brownie that shot 620 film (essentially the same as 120 but with a slightly different spool rim diameter.) I bought it with my weeding money in about 1966 because it was all I could afford on the flea market table. Film was painfully expensive when you had to pull thousands of dandelions to buy a roll and get it processed. But it really forced me to learn about light. Though at that age it was mostly about making sure there was enough of it, that it was coming from the right direction, and eventually to watch the shadows as much as the subject. In 1968 I saved up $4 to buy an Instamatic. With a flash cube! That's when I learned about shutter speeds. I read that the camera used a slower shutter speed when the flash cube was attached, so I peered into the socket and saw the little switch that caused the change. I found that I could stick a broken toothpick in there and depress the switch and thus had a two speed camera without flash. (Didn't occur to me until later that I could have just hung on to a used cube to achieve the same result.)
In 1975 I joined the Navy and bought an Olympus OM-1n. With food and shelter paid for I had the cash to pay for plenty of shots. So I brought back plenty of photos of Adak, Alaska. The only ones I was really proud of were the B&W ones that I developed and printed myself in the hobby photo lab. I went through a couple of other 35mm cameras, and other MF cameras and became very good. I was able to shoot just about any photo I wanted with the composition, exposure, depth of field, everything the way I wanted it, but I was still mostly proud of the B&W shots that I printed myself. I even built a nice big darkroom into my house in 1990.

Then along came digital. Even the best digital cameras back then produced crap photos compared to film, but you could do so much with Photoshop (if you could afford it.) I went through a few digital cameras, but eventually became disillusioned. With digital, improving my photos became a matter of how much money I could spend on a new camera rather than how much brainpower I could apply to my shots. I had moved and no longer had a darkroom, I could not afford the really high end DSLRs that promised to almost equal 35mm, and I was getting fat sitting on my butt in front of the screen. I haven't taken a photo - other than cell phone shots - for 3 or 4 years. Instead I have focused more on painting and mostly on sculpture. I guess it's the caveman in me.

I've started reading about modern DSLRs with ISO equivalents in the hundred thousand range (!) and MF like resolution. I need to learn if their dynamic range has caught up with film yet. The thing I hated most about DSLRs was their very poor dynamic range. I'm about at the point where I can build another darkroom in my current house, so this discussion is of great interest to me. Do I want to go back to the club or go modern or should I let someone else do the hunting and keep sculpting?

Still deciding...
 
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Think DoF.
 
.... I've started reading about modern DSLRs with ISO equivalents in the hundred thousand range (!) and MF like resolution. I need to learn if their dynamic range has caught up with film yet.

Yes. And then passed it. This was always the issue for me. When I decided to take digital seriously and then eventually make the full switch it was because of the promise (now fulfilled) of more overall tonal data captured.

Joe

The thing I hated most about DSLRs was their very poor dynamic range. I'm about at the point where I can build another darkroom in my current house, so this discussion is of great interest to me. Do I want to go back to the spear or go modern or should I let someone else do the hunting and keep sculpting?

Still deciding...
 
Here is an exercise:

I remember this from Middle school. The purpose was not to emphasize format, but to emphasize composure and framing. format size was secondary.

Take a piece of cardboard. cut out rectangular holes the same size as an APS sensor, 35mm and 120 frame.
Then pick an object to frame with each.
Say a vase or such.

Then look through each hole and frame the object. Make sure to frame it the same way in each hole. Then, mark the distance from the object that each hole allows the object to be fully framed in on the floor with tape and measure the distance.

Remember that a lens will compress DoF regardless. Just that med. and large format compresses it to a diff. measure than a 35mm, and moreover, the closer, the more DoF one gets.

Plus reproduction/ enlargement ratios.
 
Here is an exercise:

I remember this from Middle school. The purpose was not to emphasize format, but to emphasize composure and framing. format size was secondary.

Take a piece of cardboard. cut out rectangular holes the same size as an APS sensor, 35mm and 120 frame.
Then pick an object to frame with each.
Say a vase or such.

Then look through each hole and frame the object. Make sure to frame it the same way in each hole. Then, mark the distance from the object that each hole allows the object to be fully framed in on the floor with tape and measure the distance.

Remember that a lens will compress DoF regardless. Just that med. and large format compresses it to a diff. measure than a 35mm, and moreover, the closer, the more DoF one gets.

Plus reproduction/ enlargement ratios.

All else being equal it is correct to say that DOF becomes shallower with increasing film/sensor size (and of course the inverse which for some is very desirable). But all else is not equal. So for example my little Samsung compact which cost new at about $400.00 came fitted with a maximum aperture f/1.4 zoom lens. What f/1.4 zoom lens (costing a few hundred $$$$) would you suggest for what medium format camera?

Joe
 
Well I could argue this all day.
The aspect is actual image capture.
The closer to an object one is, the more information captured.
if a larger size, then obviously that will be more.
If you try the exercise I point out and apply the enlargement ratios to film grain/pixle size, along with the various specs of the lens, then the size factor comes into play yet once again.
 
.... I've started reading about modern DSLRs with ISO equivalents in the hundred thousand range (!) and MF like resolution. I need to learn if their dynamic range has caught up with film yet.

Yes. And then passed it. This was always the issue for me. When I decided to take digital seriously and then eventually make the full switch it was because of the promise (now fulfilled) of more overall tonal data captured.

Joe

The thing I hated most about DSLRs was their very poor dynamic range. I'm about at the point where I can build another darkroom in my current house, so this discussion is of great interest to me. Do I want to go back to the spear or go modern or should I let someone else do the hunting and keep sculpting?

Still deciding...


I think the newer 24-36MP Full-frame (what Nikon refers to as 'FX' format)( D600, D610, D750 all at 24 MP, D800 and D810 at 36 MP) Nikons are about equal to 125-speed B&W or 100-speed 6x6 cm E-6 slide film from the late 1980's-1990's era. The relative granularity (I know, I know, a film metric!) of modern digital is amazingly good up to ISO 200 in the above cameras, and ISO 800 from a D800 looks a lot closer to ISO 160 from a 6x6 rollfilm SLR shooting lower-ISO 1980's-1990's film.


Dynamic range of modern Nikons is around 12.7-13.7 stops.. AMAZING!

Digital cameras have made remarkable strides in the last 7,8 years.
 
I feel like the 36 MP D800 is the modern equivalent of a medium-format rollfim camera, except with a wider array of lenses and accessories available in F-mount than in _any_ MF lens mount, TTL light metering in SAMP modes, decent TTL flash metering, high-speed flash capability, a good big viewfinder, good higher ISO performance,and the option for 2:3 aspect ratio and also 4:5 aspect ratio in-camera captures, plus APS-C size capture, and all the cropping options most people will ever need.

36MP and 42 MP and 47 MP 24x36mm sensors are available now,and when used with high-performance lenses in the f/1.2, f/1.4 and f/1.8 and f/2 regions, we now have amazing DOF (shallow) potential, and with tilt/shift lenses, we now have at least a little control for small product and landscape/macro/architectural work where lens tilt/swing is of benefit. 24x36mm is a pretty good image format for both getting shallow DOF, and for getting deep DOF, as desired. 24x36mm is an easy format to work with, in many situations, and things are fantastic today. THe Nikon D800 is from 2012, and is an amazing tool, far more capable than my 1990's Bronicas were/are
 
.... I've started reading about modern DSLRs with ISO equivalents in the hundred thousand range (!) and MF like resolution. I need to learn if their dynamic range has caught up with film yet.

Yes. And then passed it. This was always the issue for me. When I decided to take digital seriously and then eventually make the full switch it was because of the promise (now fulfilled) of more overall tonal data captured.

Joe

The thing I hated most about DSLRs was their very poor dynamic range. I'm about at the point where I can build another darkroom in my current house, so this discussion is of great interest to me. Do I want to go back to the spear or go modern or should I let someone else do the hunting and keep sculpting?

Still deciding...

Well I could argue this all day.
The aspect is actual image capture.
The closer to an object one is, the more information captured.
if a larger size, then obviously that will be more.
If you try the exercise I point out and apply the enlargement ratios to film grain/pixle size, along with the various specs of the lens, then the size factor comes into play yet once again.

I remember this real-world example from 1987. Shooting a shot of my kitchen, from about 10 feet using a Fujinon-W 150mm f/5.6 lens on my 1950's Linhof Color view camera, using Ektachrome 64 Professional film and lighting with studio flash, using a Peak 8x loupe, it was EASY to read the ingredient list on a 2-liter bottle of Coca~Cola. Easy. On a 35mm slide, the same thing was not possible.
 
Another aspect that I point out here is this:
The application of new technology is in all honesty astounding.
No argument.
Fire off a kodak Ektalite 600 110 against a 2019 Canon Sureshot and there is no comparison.

But if your comparing that Samsung against a RB67 useing Kodacolor 200, the Samsung is going to be very much ahead in many respects except DoF but the RB67 will still take total quality while the Samsung will win in certain criteria only because of the new technology.

Its like comparing a 1980 Corolla to a 2018 Nissan Cube.

Apply the same technology of that Samsung into a new Med. Format and the MF will still take the prize.
 

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