Yalls Thoughts On My First Neg. Police Encounter

[smoke665]

unless you have autism you cant really understand it.

No more than I understand how my youngest son feels on inside (100% disabled Vet with PTSD and Traumatic Brain Injury), I only see how it affects his life, but I'll tell you the same thing I tell him every day. You have no choice but to learn to deal with it on some level, because it will be with you the rest of your life. Sadly many Vets with similar issues can't, and take their own life. Those that do learn, don't live happily ever after either, but there are times when they have happy moments. So live for the happy moments don't dwell on the bad, life's to short.

Edit: Sorry didn't see your last post. Glad you are seeking help, don't stop, don't give up. And you're right sometimes the help can be slim. Fortunately our son has resources through the VA that have helped him tremendously.

 

[DanOstergren]

Absolutely no excuse for anyone to start throwing rocks at a photographer. Besides, encounter one, the police told him it was ok for him to be there taking photos.

there's legality and there's manners.
the police won't stop you from wildly flatulating in a crowded restaurant but the establishment might take offence to it.

if the flea market vendor did not like him taking pictures, he should comply and move along. As I said: this isn't some ground breaking news story.

I still don't think throwing rocks at people or putting your hands on them because you think they shouldn't be taking photos of you or in a certain place such as a flea market is ever ok.

 

[DanOstergren]

I'm saying if the op keeps up this behavior at the flea market, he will more likely get kick-out or ban for good. I don't know why you are upset about this.

No, you said...

If you can not handle those kinds of people, you will lose your privilege as a photographer in public places.

And I'm not upset but just calling you out on your bs.

What is your point? The op couldn't handle the people and the police at the flea market. If he doesn't learn from it, he will lose his privilege at the flea market.

I wont be loseing the abilty to go there the land is owned by the county To qoute the sherrif today " It is your right to be there your not breaking any laws by taking pictures. They cant kick you out any more then they could the snow cone vendor. There is a bit o a grey area about going inside vendors stalls where they do rent those spaces but from what ive seen you pretty well stick to the walk ways anyways so thats not a problem"

Really glad you were able to get this clarification from the sheriff. Did he point you to any resources you could use to prove the legality of what you're doing? I've seen cops try kicking skaters out of public areas, only to have the skater pull out proof that they can legally be there, forcing the officer to leave them alone. They recorded the interaction on their phone for extra measure as well. Keep a phone that can record video on you, and be safe! There is absolutely no excuse for someone to throw anything at you or to put their hands on you, especially in this situation.

 

[vintagesnaps]

Early Intervention is what I did for 20+ years. I think autism to me seems treatable, and probably most of us working with kids are trying for helping them and their families with whatever challenges they may experience so they can have the best quality of life possible. What came to mind to me was one little girl who was maybe two, and came in the room with her head down and her hair hanging over her face and walked around the room facing the wall. After a few months she had changed so much, not just from participating in our program but with her parents helping her develop, and it was good to see her smiling and certainly she seemed much happier and was a different child from who I first saw.

That Wiki link Leo is one I haven't run across before and a quick search didn't come up with any reputable or medical sources I'm familiar with but I'm curious to do some more looking. (Temple Grandin would be someone to look up to get one person's experience on having autism.)

Anyway I didn't remember all the specifics of this situation since this has gotten to be a long one so I went back and reread it. It's good Rescue341 that you have an appointment to go in and talk to someone at the police station. It's unacceptable for someone to have thrown rocks at you so it would probably be good to follow up on what happened.

Seems like you'll need to figure out how to make going to the flea market a better experience for you. People who are vendors or regulars there can't read your mind - they have no way of knowing you're uncomfortable in social settings or why; they don't know why you keep walking around taking pictures but don't seem to talk to people or shop. If I was working a booth there and some guy did that I think it would make me uncomfortable and I would be wondering what he was up to if I didn't know the person.

You talked about how it is for you, walking around with headphones on etc. but you have apparently had some conversations with some of the people at the flea market. What about if you get a nice picture of one of their booths maybe offer them a look at it? or offer a small print. If you get to know even just a few of them maybe that will lead to some of the vendors becoming familiar with who you are so they might get to feeling more comfortable with you. I don't think people often get what photographers are doing anyway.

If there are some people there you've talked to already, that could be a starting point. Maybe you need to think about challenging yourself just to even say hi or nod to people occasionally. You don't have to have long conversations or talk to everybody.

And I'm going to give Tecboy the benefit of the doubt that he didn't seem to express what he meant very well. Having done events I think what he was talking about was that taking photos at events where there are a lot of people means a certain amount of interacting with people. Maybe not a lot, it depends, but if you can figure out how to enjoy it the best way for you and still find a way to try to help others understand you a little that might be worth thinking about.

 

[smoke665]

Getting back to the OP, regardless of any rights, or issues of the OP, there's another consideration in today's world. Whether we want to accept it or not, people are a lot more aware of their surroundings and suspicious of anything out of the ordinary, thanks to continued terrorist attacks around the world. If you look out of place in a public place, (and taking random pictures for no reason is going to be a flag) you're not going to get a warm reception, especially if you don't explain yourself or relate in any way to the people there. Doesn't mean that the people there are mean or hateful, it's just the way it is. I didn't grow up in a world where I had to be suspicious of others, but I find myself doing it now when I'm out in a crowd.

 

[tecboy]

And I'm going to give Tecboy the benefit of the doubt that he didn't seem to express what he meant very well.

Well, I'm sorry I wasn't clear about what I said. It doesn't matter if you are Asperger, autism, or any disability, anyone has the right to photograph. However, you have to be respectful to others and able to diffuse confrontation. Go volunteer at the nonprofit organization. Ask one photographer if you can hang around the whole time. You will feel comfortable this way. Take a break from flea market for about a month until the people and police will forget about the situation. When you do come back to the flea market, have a friend who is also a photographer with you. If you have issue again with the people and police, a least a friend or a photographer can back you up.

 

[Gary A.]

Getting back to the OP, regardless of any rights, or issues of the OP, there's another consideration in today's world. Whether we want to accept it or not, people are a lot more aware of their surroundings and suspicious of anything out of the ordinary, thanks to continued terrorist attacks around the world. If you look out of place in a public place, (and taking random pictures for no reason is going to be a flag) you're not going to get a warm reception, especially if you don't explain yourself or relate in any way to the people there. Doesn't mean that the people there are mean or hateful, it's just the way it is. I didn't grow up in a world where I had to be suspicious of others, but I find myself doing it now when I'm out in a crowd.

Rant-

I know I and I think most of us here, are quite full up with people acting upon what they desire as opposed to acting out according to law and social standards. It is fine to be suspicious of others, as it is fine to think most anything one wants to think about, it is the acting out of said thoughts that is disturbing and in many cases wrong ethically and lawfully.

What really is especially irritating is security forces seeing a big camera and assuming you are a terrorist. Common sense dictates that one should be suspicious of those with tiny cameras, as a person planning ill will would most likely work covertly. With Google Earth (and other similar apps), and easy public access to the actual engineering drawings of public buildings, walking around with a dSLR seems a waste of time and secrecy.

-End of Rant-

Ignorance should temper one's action ... but in today's world ignorance emboldens people.

@rescue341: I am glad the appointment with the Sheriff went well. Usually such meetings start and end confrontationally with the Sheriff defending the actions of his/her Deputy/Officer. Even though I have a nephew with Asperger and a daughter who is a therapist for autism kids/young adults, I have very little insight into your world. It seems that you are overcoming some/many/most of its symptoms and adjusting accordingly to stay within the norms of our society. Most of us would have walked away from the situation and not stand our ground or contacted the authorities for a review of the deputy's actions. It is people like you, people who stand up for what is right, that allows other photographers behind you to enjoy our freedoms. For that I thank you ... everyday our freedoms seem to erode bit-by-bit. "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Ben Franklin.

Thank you for showing all of us non-Asperger photographers how to individually defend a basic Constitutional right.

Good Luck and Good Shooting,
Gary

PS- @rescue341: Welcome to the forum.
G

PPS- I like lemons.
G

 

[Gary A.]

I never expected this to be a thread so much about my autism. I only mentioned it in my post becuase I was saying I like the ideal of trying to become part of the flea market and interacting with people im going to try the ideal despite some diffcultys i have. To the joker guy in your work with kids with autism what offten happens when you invade what they perseve as there space. Im sure most of them will shutdown and become defensive. So think about this with me for a second. Im walking around the flea market with my headphones in takeing pictures of people and trying to remain seprate from them becuase thats how im comfortable. Now someone comes up to me yelling or touches me or throws rocks at me. What do you think my automatic response will be. Im going to dig my heels in and defend "my space". My perfect day of taking photos is not haveing to talk to anyone. You think becuase you know some aspies you get to tell me I dont have a disorder that i have delt with my whole life. you sir can go suck a lemon. Oh im sorry people with autism cant say that can they.

on to more light hearted things heres a photo I got at the flea market ill post more below the site is telling my the upload is to big when i try to select more then one photoView attachment 142300

A bit overly contrast with awkward framing. The second image is much nicer technically and content-wise it has good impact.

 

[pendennis]

Early Intervention is what I did for 20+ years. I think autism to me seems treatable, and probably most of us working with kids are trying for helping them and their families with whatever challenges they may experience so they can have the best quality of life possible. What came to mind to me was one little girl who was maybe two, and came in the room with her head down and her hair hanging over her face and walked around the room facing the wall. After a few months she had changed so much, not just from participating in our program but with her parents helping her develop, and it was good to see her smiling and certainly she seemed much happier and was a different child from who I first saw.

That Wiki link Leo is one I haven't run across before and a quick search didn't come up with any reputable or medical sources I'm familiar with but I'm curious to do some more looking. (Temple Grandin would be someone to look up to get one person's experience on having autism.)

Anyway I didn't remember all the specifics of this situation since this has gotten to be a long one so I went back and reread it. It's good Rescue341 that you have an appointment to go in and talk to someone at the police station. It's unacceptable for someone to have thrown rocks at you so it would probably be good to follow up on what happened.

Seems like you'll need to figure out how to make going to the flea market a better experience for you. People who are vendors or regulars there can't read your mind - they have no way of knowing you're uncomfortable in social settings or why; they don't know why you keep walking around taking pictures but don't seem to talk to people or shop. If I was working a booth there and some guy did that I think it would make me uncomfortable and I would be wondering what he was up to if I didn't know the person.

You talked about how it is for you, walking around with headphones on etc. but you have apparently had some conversations with some of the people at the flea market. What about if you get a nice picture of one of their booths maybe offer them a look at it? or offer a small print. If you get to know even just a few of them maybe that will lead to some of the vendors becoming familiar with who you are so they might get to feeling more comfortable with you. I don't think people often get what photographers are doing anyway.

If there are some people there you've talked to already, that could be a starting point. Maybe you need to think about challenging yourself just to even say hi or nod to people occasionally. You don't have to have long conversations or talk to everybody.

And I'm going to give Tecboy the benefit of the doubt that he didn't seem to express what he meant very well. Having done events I think what he was talking about was that taking photos at events where there are a lot of people means a certain amount of interacting with people. Maybe not a lot, it depends, but if you can figure out how to enjoy it the best way for you and still find a way to try to help others understand you a little that might be worth thinking about.

As of now, Autism doesn't have any permanent treatment. Psychologists and counselors can only treat the symptoms, and recommend behavior modification; and this is temporary, at best.

Temporary doesn't necessarily mean a few days, weeks, or even months. But, eventually Autistics have a relapse, because the modifications don't change the root cause behavior in the patient. How severed the relapse is, depends on the amount of time lapsed if counseling has ceased, how much support the autistic gets (familial, social network, etc.), and what life style the autistic has.

Our son lived apart from us in a small town, with very little in the way of support. A different job took him even further away from our support. He eventually returned home to our area, sharing an apartment with his younger brother. The relapse was near total, and he nearly turned in completely on himself. It's taken almost ten years of counseling and treatment to get him to a point where he's making progress toward living on his own.

Autistics are also faced with external stimuli which compound the inward facing problem many Autistics face. This includes television, audio and visual stimuli, and overexposure to things like computers and games.

They also have problems with self-esteem, and confidence in their talents and abilities. And that's at the mild end of the spectrum. Asperger's compounds the difficulties.

Our last discussion with a psychologist revealed that there is no real "cure", just constant reinforcement of "good" behavior cues.

 

[Spirit Vision Photography]

Hey all. I wasn't exactly sure where to put this so please forgive me if i'm in the wrong place. I had my frist negitve police encounter today and was hopeing for thoughts and advice for the future

A little background on this location and how I deal with people this is local flea market that I've done photo walks at a few times in the past. There have been a few times I have been approached by people asking qustions mostly all pleasent encounter ending in me deleting there photo and apologize for offending them. There have been a few less pleasant encounters with people being rude and yelling these have all ended peacefully with me telling them It's a protected right upheld by the supreme court and walking away. I am very much of a it's how you apporch me kind of guy

Round one:
Now on to todays events. So I get to the flea market and do as I ussaly do I start at the far end and make laps takeing picture of anyting that catches my eye. People talking about an old oil lantern, a old plow ect ect. I made about three laps before I notice a guy walking backwards towards me. He gets to me and in a real hushed and angery voice says "delete the picture!" I reply " I dont think I have any of you but hold on ill check" This made him mad and he got out of his hushed voice and started yelling how thats BS he saw me take his picture. At this point with the guy yelling I have already decided I dont care if I have a pic of him or not and if I do i dont care how out of focus it is im not deleating it. So I start the whole spill that its a frist amendment right, Hes in a public place with not expectation of privacy blah blah blah. I start to walk away and he grabs for my camera. I push him back and hit record on my camera (my card was almost full so I only got part of the altercation). He chest up and i put my arm out keeping him at a distance and yelling commands to back up or I will press charges, He backs up and walks away. I check my camera for damage and go in the other direction to countiune on. A few mins latter he finds and starts a verbal altercation hes yelling about wire tap laws and privacy and that im some kind of prevent and he rents a space at the flea market so its like his home an i cant take pictures of his home. a small coward forms with a few taking pictures of me and a few joing in with the guy. Someone who saw this called the police who came and delt with it. I showed them the partial video I had gotten of the assualt and they asked if i wanted to press charges I refused becuase I wasnt hurt and my stuff was broke so I saw no point in risking runing someone elses life by trying to send them to jail. these officer were very good about understanding photograghy as a right. One very respectfuly tried to convince me to not take any photos of anyone I explanied to him that i understood what he ment but I couldnt let anyone bully me out of a right i bleive in. Again these officers were wonderful the Neg encounter comes in round two

Round Two:
Becuase the altercation with the guy drew a small coward that sided with him this kind of set the tone of the venders for the rest of the day. I had many get angry and yell and cuss but to some of there credits I also had a few really good conversations with some including a Mexican immigrant who told me it made him very said to see so many people who never lived with out rights forgetting how important those rights are. Fast forward to the end of the day when most vendors are packing up. I see a woman packing up some amazing wood carvings she had made. I raise my camera and start to pull focus when she bends down picks up a rock and throws it at me. I hit record as she picks up hand fulls of gravel and slings them at me. Yelling shell call the cops. I tell her mama if you dont stop throwing gravel ill call th- Boom I catch a rock in my eye. I call 911 and request deputys respond to my location. they get there and say nothing about the woman throwing rocks. When I try to show them the video. They refuse. One officer ask me for my Press ID. I tell him I dont have a Press ID but I do have a drivers licences if he needs to see it. He says without a press ID I cant take pictures of people. I try explaing to him and any member of the public can be considered a member of the press and the a press ID gives no more rights then a citzen already has. He doesn't want to here it. He goes on to say I may have a right to photograph in public but not when its harassment by shoving a camera in peoples faces. I show him my telescoping lens and explain to him that my shots are taking from as far away as possible so i can capture more natural interactions and how is that shoving a camera in someones face. The encounter ends after a few more threats from the officer that he will charge me with harassment and a few more times of being called an idiot by the officer. I have a appointment with his Sargent to talk about the encounter Monday

What do yall think about how I handled todays events. Sure I could have been nicer to the frist guy and that likely would have avoided the whole thing but to be perfectly honest I get tried of people trying to steam roll over me for doing something completely legal. Do yall have any advice for the future and what do yall think about the photography being harassment argument. I had never heard or thought about it. In what conditions could photography go from right to harassment. I understand nothing yall say is legal advice just more looking for your thoughts

On two separate occasions, I have been asked by a police officer to delete an image that I made in a public setting. On both occasions I refused to do so. The first time was when I was shooting film, and he asked me for the exposed roll. The second time I was asked to delete a couple of my images from the card in my DSLR. When I very politely refused to do so, and informed him that I was within all legal bounds to make them, they also very politely agreed with me and allowed me to go on my way. They were just trying to appease someone that was making a scene over the situation.

 

[480sparky]

........ They were just trying to appease someone that was making a scene over the situation.

They were actually trying to see how well you were indoctrinated into the "I'm a cop and you will do what I say" ideology.

 

[ApertureF11Sniper]

On two separate occasions, I have been asked by a police officer to delete an image that I made in a public setting. On both occasions I refused to do so. The first time was when I was shooting film, and he asked me for the exposed roll. The second time I was asked to delete a couple of my images from the card in my DSLR. When I very politely refused to do so, and informed him that I was within all legal bounds to make them, they also very politely agreed with me and allowed me to go on my way. They were just trying to appease someone that was making a scene over the situation.

On my current project with the homeless drug addicts there are very frequently police present. I make it a point to go to them and tell them what I am doing and so far I have always gotten a positive response. I also wear my intense bright yellow and orange work jacket.....Because of drug deals in the area I am always careful before taking any shots.. But I have yet to have a cop be a problem and too I show them the pictures on the camera....Have not yet been asked to delete any images.

 

[snowbear]

Five-year old zombie thread; OP last seen two days after posting it.
Lockin it.