Are electric cars powered by coal-based electricity any benefit?

[astroNikon]

I also prefer a centralized power generating systems, rather than everyone having to shovel coal into their basement gravity furnaces. Then the centralized systems have to get more efficient at producing energy per total cost of generation and ecological costs.

Otherwise, we'd all be driving coal/steam driven cars around ...

 

[limr]

Okay, we all know that if this continues going off-topic into the realm of the relative merits of government, it's not going to end well. Let's keep the conversation focused on cars and energy and NOT about govermnent.

...and as I was typing, Terri posted essentially the same thing, so now y'all HAVE to listen.

My car is awesome.

So is mine

 

[Gary A.]

@Gary A. Being both pragmatic and just a tad on the lazy side, I'm never opposed to things that will make my life easier or better so long as they don't require additional effort on my part.

As to the Atomic Bomb ultimately saving lives you can't prove or disprove the deaths or lives saved so using "Modus tollens" you might argue the statement is true, but I have to think the quarter of a million Japanese killed by the bomb or their families might disagree. Having a crazy man in North Korea with nuclear weapons and the capability to hit US soil doesn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling either.

Yes Nuclear Power is clean while it's making power, but leaves a really "dirty mess". The old saying no such thing as a free lunch applies. I still think the use of renewable, sun, wind, or waves holds a better long term solution.

Oh please, it is not a matter of proving or disproving something that didn't happen ... it is a matter of accurate prediction(s) based upon facts and data. If you have better data/information which is contrary to:

1) The atomic weapons dropped over Japan did shorten the war;
2) The atomic weapons saved U.S. lives; and
3) The atomic weapons saved Japanese lives.

Then produce it. Generalization with no backup have little to no relevance.

I never said "I" approved of detonating a bomb over Japan. I did want to point out that there is another side. Personally, I would have given a lot of thought to dropping the first bomb over a relatively inhabited place ... like Tokyo Bay as a demonstration of the weapon's power.

I am quite sure the Japanese who suffer/suffered as a consequence of the bombings may think differently. Conversely, those who died and wounded at Pearl Harbor and their surviving families should be heard from as well.

In truth, our incendiary bombings of Japanese cities were as deadly as atomic weapons. On March 10, 1945, we dropped napalm, on Tokyo destroying a fifth of the city and causing the death of 105,400 people. This single bombing raid was worse than the atomic bombing of Nagasaki and on a par with Hiroshima. After Tokyo, 60 more cities were similarly napalmed. I don't know if using napalm, a chemical weapon, to kill a 100,000 people is any more right ... than using an atomic weapon to kill a 100,000 people.

 

[smoke665]

@limr and @astroNikon are we to assume you have electric vehicles. If so how about some real life owners experiences.

 

[limr]

Going back to the OP's title/question, I don't think you can have a relevant discussion of the question without including the government in that discussion because Uncle Sams fingers are in every aspect, from the time coal comes out of the ground, to the point you turn the key on in your electric vehicle. The Government is the only common denominator across the board.


Footnote: Sorry Limr we posted back to back. Maybe revise my post to say include Government (as it specifically affects the OP's question)?

Simulposts are the devil

I understand that in reality, the issue of government regulation is part of the conversation (though I do believe a discussion of alternate energy sources can be had without talking about details of gov't regulation). However, that conversation is also a mine field. As long as no one gets close to blowing up a mine, it's fine, but there have been a few comments that are steering us back to the hot zone and I'd like to avoid flying body parts

 

[astroNikon]

@limr and @astroNikon are we to assume you have electric vehicles. If so how about some real life owners experiences.

Hybrid
short trips are awesome

.
.
Though I do have to say, you have to drive like you are driving a hybrid, and know it's limits. Its not a Tesla Model S.

 

[limr]

@Gary A. Being both pragmatic and just a tad on the lazy side, I'm never opposed to things that will make my life easier or better so long as they don't require additional effort on my part.

As to the Atomic Bomb ultimately saving lives you can't prove or disprove the deaths or lives saved so using "Modus tollens" you might argue the statement is true, but I have to think the quarter of a million Japanese killed by the bomb or their families might disagree. Having a crazy man in North Korea with nuclear weapons and the capability to hit US soil doesn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling either.

Yes Nuclear Power is clean while it's making power, but leaves a really "dirty mess". The old saying no such thing as a free lunch applies. I still think the use of renewable, sun, wind, or waves holds a better long term solution.

Oh please, it is not a matter of proving or disproving something that didn't happen ... it is a matter prediction based upon facts and data. If you have better data/information which is contrary to:

1) The atomic weapons dropped over Japan did not shorten the war;
2) The atomic weapons saved U.S. lives; and
3) The atomic weapons saved Japanese lives.

Then produce it. Generalization with no backup have little to no relevance.

I never said "I" approved of detonating a bomb over Japan. I did want to point out that there is another side. Personally, I would have given a lot of thought to dropping the first bomb over a relatively inhabited place ... like Tokyo Bay as a demonstration of the weapon's power.

I am quite sure the Japanese who suffer/suffered as a consequence of the bombings may think differently. Conversely, those who died and wounded at Pearl Harbor and their surviving families should be heard from as well.

In truth, our incendiary bombings of Japanese cities were as deadly as atomic weapons. On March 10, 1945, we dropped napalm, on Tokyo destroying a fifth of the city and causing the death of 105,400 people. This single bombing raid was worse than the atomic bombing of Nagasaki and on a par with Hiroshima. After Tokyo, 60 more cities were similarly napalmed. I don't know if using napalm, a chemical weapon, to kill a 100,000 people is any more right ... than using an atomic weapon to kill a 100,000 people.

We're moving on from this topic.

 

[smoke665]

Oh please, it is not a matter of proving or disproving something that didn't happen .

I wasn't disagreeing with you, I merely stated that your assumption could be accepted as fact by using a line of reasoning which makes assumptions based on things you know are true. Same as the assumption formed on those who were killed by the bombs.

As to the existence/non existence of atomic bombs, I wish they had never been invented, but that's an issue not relevant to the thread.

 

[limr]

@limr and @astroNikon are we to assume you have electric vehicles. If so how about some real life owners experiences.

I don't, I just think that my car is awesome.

 

[smoke665]

@astroNikon that's pretty impressive even if it was only 1.7 miles How about real life city and road mileage. Maintenance issues, longevity, etc., you know the things that make vehicle ownership such an ordeal

 

[astroNikon]

@astroNikon that's pretty impressive even if it was only 1.7 miles How about real life city and road mileage. Maintenance issues, longevity, etc., you know the things that make vehicle ownership such an ordeal

Free vehicle pickup.
Free vehicle dropoff.
Free loaner vehicle.
they put new batteries in my car key fob - no charge.
No cost for the last service to check my window and a few other things.
Nice and cushy ride, heated and a/c leather seats, great stereo, moon roof, electric rear trunk and all the fun stuff.
No real maintenance issues at 37k.

Overall though with Highway and City driving I get 40mpg. Pushing it I'll get 35mpg.
But I'll normally be between 40 and 60mpg average for a full tank of gas.

But I can see where this car would not be very good if you live in hilly areas. If you are stuck in traffic (I'm not) a lot then it really helps save energy/gas.
edited: Also, if I have over 400lbs of passengers then the gas engine will be on most of the time. So weight does matter. The MKZ uses the same hybrid system found in the CMax which is a smaller, lighter car. But it uses more regular high performance tires, and is of course a larger and heavier car.

But many of the short trips I'll be all electric. The battery though is not large enough for extended all battery trips. The Energi Fusion uses a much larger battery and electric motor. But those are very expensive vehicles and didn't have the features I wanted.

 

[smoke665]

But I can see where this car would not be very good if you live in hilly areas. If you are stuck in traffic (I'm not) a lot then it really helps save energy/gas.

This is what my friend said about the Lexus hybrid she drives

 

[petrochemist]

Overall though with Highway and City driving I get 40mpg. Pushing it I'll get 35mpg.
But I'll normally be between 40 and 60mpg average for a full tank of gas.

But I can see where this car would not be very good if you live in hilly areas. If you are stuck in traffic (I'm not) a lot then it really helps save energy/gas.

I suspected your snapshot showed unusual conditions. Long term I average 56mpg, though if being more gentle on the throttle I have made trips around 100 miles that average over 80mpg. All from my 'highly polluting' turbo diesel estate - which rarely does any city driving.

 

[astroNikon]

Overall though with Highway and City driving I get 40mpg. Pushing it I'll get 35mpg.
But I'll normally be between 40 and 60mpg average for a full tank of gas.

But I can see where this car would not be very good if you live in hilly areas. If you are stuck in traffic (I'm not) a lot then it really helps save energy/gas.

I suspected your snapshot showed unusual conditions. Long term I average 56mpg, though if being more gentle on the throttle I have made trips around 100 miles that average over 80mpg. All from my 'highly polluting' turbo diesel estate - which rarely does any city driving.

City driving I'll get high avg mpg, even up to 999 if full battery. So these generation hybrid excel at City driving. The electric motor and battery though are not powerful enough to keep it going on the highway at speeds unless you really learn to feather the throttle and draft someone or the highway is dead flat, otherwise it's a mix of electric and mostly gas.

Under normal highway driving you are using the engine all the time which by itself gets over 30-35mpg and the electric usually kicks in to "assist". I get much better mileage not taking the highway which is only about 5-10 minutes longer but speeds are realistically 55 mph and less rather than 70+ mph. Mileage goes up to 60 mpg without much of a problem; I'm usually the faster of the cars doing the passing rather than being passed.

But if I use heated or a/c'd seat turned or the a/c system on high in general on it draws from the battery too much and the engine kicks on. This system is from the C-Max so it's over worked in the MKZ. But I knew all of that. When I test drove it though I preferred the Mkz hybrid over the same priced regular mkz and fusion hybrid & much higher mpg and $$ Fusion Energi system.

In bad weather I use a Taurus X (19mpg), when I'm bored a Mustang Cobra (9-26mpg) or a Duc will get 30.

This is my normal mpg fast drive home from work not using the highway. The car excels in mpg in 45-55mph. From 25-35 the system seems to be a lot of gas engine. In lower speeds mostly battery. The tires have a lot to do with it as the mkz tires are not hybrid high mileage tires but more high performance tires. I suspect if I had the Fusion Hybrid my mileage would be higher

btw, I've always been working on getting the most gas mileage from all my cars from my very first car. I track all my mileage and gas fillups. I haven't taken this car on a long trip yet but normally long trips I bring stuff with me like a bicycle or two, or my telescope system, all which are too big for this car.

 

[smoke665]

Gee @astroNikon 40 mpg isn't as good as I thought it would be. I average over 150 mpg towing with my F350 diesel.
>
>
>
>
>
>
Assuming I have a carhauler trailer behind me loaded with 13 smart cars and factoring in the fact they are moving down the road without using any fuel at all. If i wanted to fudge on the weight some I could throw on another one and get over 160