Are Photographer trying to mimic Painters?

Slightly off post, yet partial on, an old post by a member who used to be a frequent contributor. His OP is a little hard to read but has some valuable observations if you do, as do the comments that follow Art Photography
 
I agree with you on so many things except this. I'm afraid it's another of those cliches that gets bantered about frequently. Digital images are only as sharp/sterile as the photographer wants them to be. I have a large library of of Presets, Profiles and LUTs that give me the grain, look and color of my favorite films . Actions that mimic the microcontrast of film and filters/lenses that change the tone of the image. I would be willing to bet most people would not be able to tell the difference between the two, unless they were comparing actual prints. On the subject of sterile some of my more profitable work in the 70's was forensic. Talk about sterile.

Another thing that gets an eye roll from me are film shooters who talk about the advantages of film then convert it to a digital scan at a lower resolution than most modern day cameras are capable of, then printing on an inkjet printer, totally negating any tonal advantage of film. I dont begrudge them their hobby, if that's what they want more power to them, but to me the work/reward just isn't there. Now if they're printing 11x14 or 16x20 in darkroom on Kodak or Illford paper, they have my attention.
Yes, digital doesn't have to end in a sterile sharp product. The baby photo was digital then edited. It was a mild amount of physical characteristics of a painting. However, notice how many folks say they like the sharp realistic look of an image and without editing. It's why modern lenses have sprouted 10 or 15 extra elements. Digital grain is like adding a fog over the entire image. In film it smoothly transitions from highlights to shadows. Subtle, but another subtle distinction. The random shape of actual film grain from grains of silver is softer and less harsh. The colors of portra especially the skin tones which are amazing, would take an hour a photo to reproduce. The guys on F Stopper tried and even used one of their sponsors plug ins and gave up. Also, when I shoot a back lit shot with portra and expose for the subject, film gives lots of detail ln the sky/background, that would be blown out digitally. I am always looking for that 10% that improves my images over normal. I scan my film negatives but with a 46 mp d850 with a zeiss 100 makro planar so I have the resolution of the digital capture with the characteristics of film. The best of both worlds. You are right, folks using scanners, including labs come in at lower resolutions. I can easily make 24x36 prints off those scans but that is not my target size. The tonal transitions over huge a 67, 60 x60 mm vs 24x36, 4 times as large or 6x6 negative are amazing. My entire 67 kit with 3 lenses and 3 backs is less than a grand. A larger crop sensor Hassie digital, 50 grand. It is scary for many folks to take away the training wheels lcd and have confidence in their exposure, compostion etc. Then there is the medium format "look" from shooting a longer lens closer. From 7 feet for a head and shoulders digitally I might shoot a 135 digitally, with MF a 250 mm. The older 5 element lenses have micro contrast that is lost with low energy light sucked up or reflected by up to 22 pieces of glass in digital lenses. Which is why more than half of my digital lenses are older 90's glass, much manual focus. When they coat, they only coat a couple elements and light still has to pass through all that glass. With film I get gorgeous natural grain, highlight detail, stunning skin tones and I love the pastel palette of portra and the quality of a real medium format negative not a tiny "crop" digital sensor. I have a premier Portra plug in, close but no cigar. My business model is the highest possible quality and not just good enough. But I am doing this as a business and unless an amateur is trying to achieve super high quality, it doesn't matter. Now if I need instant feedback or availability, and 3 hours for develop and scan isn't fast enough or if I am using a vari nd where it's hard to determine and keep a specific number of stops blocked, although with 35 mm I just screw on a 2 or 3 stop nd and know exactly what I am getting, or if I need ttl, then I use digital. It's horses for courses. Again, I like choices and in this day and age, if you want to sell, you have to produce something that can't be produced by uncle harry with his cell phone. Your use of lighting separates your work from the herd as well. Including the "pros" who like the anti photoshop people, act like they are purists bragging about using only available light but virtually every one doesn't have a clue how to use or what lighting does and they know it.
 
@mrca There's no argument that 4x5 film will produce a beautiful print, but if I'm going to the trouble of shooting 4x5, I will print in darkroom, not convert to digital. As to resolution the below image was shot on the K3ii crop sensor 24mm at f/5, a 129MB file with a resolution of 5824x3872. I can easily print at up to 19x12. This is with an Illford Delta 3200 finish. To sharp, to sterile???
Dollywood09292017_228-Edit-2.jpg


Now consider this one, an experiment with the Brenizer Method. This was shot with the K1MII 100mm at f/2.8 an 823MB file with a resolution of 22,500x12797. How about a 75x42 print??? Not big enough??? No problem just add a few more shots to the mix.
car.jpg


You like Portra, how about in Portra 400
car-2.jpg

I could just as easily convert it to Illford 3200, or several other finishes with the click of a mouse. Try that with film???? The point I'm making is that as I've said before I don't begrudge anyone who likes film. I've processed thousands of rolls of B&W, printed boxes of prints in the darkroom. Even now there's a dozen or so rolls in the refrigerator and 2 half used rolls in cameras (been there for 2yrs). I would shoot film in a heartbeat if I thought it offered me any real advantage but so far digital just keeps giving where film stopped.
 
Last edited:
For me it is the challenge of matching wits with the camera. I find tinkering with an old view camera and getting a nice picture, far more satisfying than pushing a mouse. Others would find it a fool's errand.

That's life.
 
@mrca There's no argument that 4x5 film will produce a beautiful print, but if I'm going to the trouble of shooting 4x5, I will print in darkroom, not convert to digital. As to resolution the below image was shot on the K3ii crop sensor 24mm at f/5, a 129MB file with a resolution of 5824x3872. I can easily print at up to 19x12. This is with an Illford Delta 3200 finish. To sharp, to sterile???
View attachment 254972

Now consider this one, an experiment with the Brenizer Method. This was shot with the K1MII 100mm at f/2.8 an 823MB file with a resolution of 22,500x12797. How about a 75x42 print??? Not big enough??? No problem just add a few more shots to the mix.
View attachment 254968

You like Portra, how about in Portra 400
View attachment 254971
I could just as easily convert it to Illford 3200, or several other finishes with the click of a mouse. Try that with film???? The point I'm making is that as I've said before I don't begrudge anyone who likes film. I've processed thousands of rolls of B&W, printed boxes of prints in the darkroom. Even now there's a dozen or so rolls in the refrigerator and 2 half used rolls in cameras (been there for 2yrs). I would shoot film in a heartbeat if I thought it offered me any real advantage but so far digital just keeps giving where film stopped.
I don't shoot film, even MF, just for the resolution. With 46 mp digital, it has all I need. For me, it's about the look of film. Here is a 645 Ilford 3200 image from my rb67 and note the difference in grain from a digital attempt to look like it. More grain would give that photo of an old car a feel of that era for me. In 67 format, the grain would still be there but smaller in proportion to the image. If I wanted more grain, dropping to 35mm gives me grain that echoes the grains of sand in the beach shot, appropriate. Generally over powers for my taste in 35mm so push hp5 400 to 1600. The color shot is the classic look of portra, plenty of detail in the shadows in full sun, yet detail in the clouds and sky and the soft, pastel color palette. The red ford is blocked up with little detail in the shadows and is still loosing detail in the windshield and hood. Plus the red is not true to portra color palette. Like I said, close but no cigar. The guys from F stoppers ridiculed a wedding photographer for spending 20 grand on film in a year and were going to show her how she wasted all that money, and 20 minutes later using one of the two major plugins, they threw up their hands. Watch the attitude at the beginning and the admission at the end. I haven't watched this in ages and she settled on the same film choices. He doesn't realize Portra is a low saturation, low contrast film with gorgeous skin tones. It's called portra for a reason. Note he keeps saying film is low res and talks about sharpness constantly. An example of the folks who think everything has to be sharp and non sharp is a defect. I don't buy wine on alcohol content and I don't judge photos only on sharpness. This is the sharpness fixation that started in 2000 as digital took hold and led to lenses being designed to satisfy that demand. Sharpness is line any other photo quality, it has appropriate useage and other things may be more appropriate for other images.
 

Attachments

  • Ilford 3200 645-1.jpg
    Ilford 3200 645-1.jpg
    318.5 KB · Views: 44
  • 35 mm with 3200-1.jpg
    35 mm with 3200-1.jpg
    180.4 KB · Views: 49
  • Portra-1.jpg
    Portra-1.jpg
    260.3 KB · Views: 51
Its obvious to tell which photographers are trying to mimic painters. They are the ones wearing a beret!
 
More grain would give that photo of an old car a feel of that era for me.
The Illford profile on the old car is one of 10 slightly different profiles for 3200, a one click conversion with no further edits. I prefer this version, as a good cross between digital and film, but generally fine tune it based on the image. Same is true on the Portra except I've created about 20 different versions. Color grading by eye is an excersise in futility, no two sets of eyes are the same. In actual editing I get more detailed (by the numbers) with color grading, many times stealing the palette from other images and adjusting mine to match the highlights/midtones/shadows, then using HSB settings to fine tune, especially on skin. I think the other point he made in the video, that he was only using LR. The most recent versions of LR are awesome, but PS still remains the go to for heavy lifting (especially in color grading).
 
Last edited:
Its obvious to tell which photographers are trying to mimic painters. They are the ones wearing a beret!
Mais oui. And when folks are missing shots turning that ball cap around, a beret just crushes back. Wearing one is like using an "art lens" you automatically produce art. Here, Close Encounters of the Yosemite Kind. Hundred of folks drawn from all over the world for the firefall in late February to this huge solid rock. In the movie Dreyfus was at the dinner table and used all the mashed potatoes to sculpt Devils Tower. Setting up 3 lights then pouring out 3 lbs of mashed potatoes had folks looking on wondering what the hell I was doing. When I drizzled the ketchup down the face emulating the fire fall a dozen wanted their photos taken with it It gave us something fun to do while waiting for the firefall.
 

Attachments

  • Mais Oui-1.jpg
    Mais Oui-1.jpg
    264 KB · Views: 50
I'd like to point out that to my mind, photography itself has evolved into two art forms - the taking of the shot, firstly, and secondly the development of the image.
 
I'd like to point out that to my mind, photography itself has evolved into two art forms - the taking of the shot, firstly, and secondly the development of the image.
Ansel Adams, once a pianist in Yosemite, described it musically as the negative being the score and the print the performance. He wrote a whole book on each.
 
Perhaps the best answer to my question is yes. Photographers like to mimic artists, in the sense that they have a canvas, the photo and the pallet, post processing, to modify the images as they see fit.

While this may have always been the goal, digital processing had given the modern photographer, far more latitude over the control of the image, than was available with darkroom techniques.
 
Both photography and painting use the same fundamental elements of visual art. These include considerations such as space, line, color, balance, depth, texture, and more. Any good piece of artwork comes with a similar understanding of each of these aspects of art and uses them within the creation methods.
 
If you have no talent for painting, photography is a valid substitute.
 

Most reactions

Back
Top