Getting into Strobes

[kdthomas]

OK,from the 5 tips in the sticky thread:

• my budget is about 1200-$1500, maybe a little more
• I have a d3200(low end I know), more equipment details in sig. More worried about lenses & lighting than the camera body.
• I want to do portraits, and fine art, maybe even 4x5 format at some point
• I'm fairly new, but I think I have an eye for the art ... I'm picking it up and I want to get semi-serious, maybe even serious.
• I've found some deals on ProFoto and PCBs, I think I can afford two of the Einsteins & a hotshoe remote, or perhaps three of the Alien Bees

I really want something that's good quality gear that will last years & years.
I dont too much like the idea of getting locked down to one vendor, but will if its a good decision to do so.

Thanks in advance for your help!

 

[tirediron]

Lighting gear is much like camera gear, that is, you buy into a system, including the lights themselves, modifiers, and accessories. $1500 is a decent budget to start with, and that can get you into a nice 3-4 light system and modifiers. I would keep walking right past Profoto; while it's quality gear ('the best' some would argue), you pay a LOT for the name in my opinion. I would look into the Flashpoint line from Adorama; decent quality that will last a long time under normal use.

 

[Derrel]

I like Speedotron pack-and-head systems for 1)durability and utter ruggedness 2) wide availability of accessories like beauty dishes, speed rings, grids, diffusers, barn doors, and speed ring MOUNTING KITS that are tough and easy to screw-on or machine-bolt-and-washers-and-nuts bolt on or epoxy on to damned near anything 3) simple design 4) low,low price used 5) USA made, USA distributed, USA repaired, in Chicago.

For portraiture, the honeycomb grid, and the mylar snap-on diffusers sold by Speedotron are indispensible accessories. Portraiture is NOT about blasting light all over hell for a 1-meter softbox or a 1- or 2-meter umbrella....that's what the cheap-o companies push. The real, pro-oriented companies offer light SHAPING tools, and the ones Speedotron offers are many, and really what are needed.

Second choice is a monolight system, that uses the BOWENS reflector mount. Period. Bownes S-mount is the closest thing there is to a defacto standard except the Speedotron Universal Mount, which has another 40-odd years on Bowens and the S-mount. Bownes mountm aka Bowens Fit in the UK/Europe, is a good choice.

Third is the Adorama Flashpoint 320M and 620M model monolights, which use "the OLD" Photogenic bayonet. NOt "the new:" one, but the old one that Photogenic Machine Company has licensed to Mettle.

Aliene Bees cost 2.5x more than Flashpoint, and give less power. The Buff Einsteins are NICE, and have great specificationsm, but I think are overkill for a beginner, and limit your number of lights per $1,000 spent.

Studio lights are sold largely by HYPE, and spec sheets, and MANY people have used only ONE,single brand, so there are tons of fanboys who RAVE about any brand they own, not really ever having used anything but their own brand, and type. Most people today are utterly unaware of any of the advantages of pack and head lighting. The companies that MAKE flash gear, except for Buff and Profoto, do HORRIBLE advertising and marketing of their products, and have for literally decades! it is very difficult to get good, unbiased, thoughtful,experienced, multi-point-of-view information on lighting gear on-line.

 

[kdthomas]

I like Speedotron pack-and-head systems for 1)durability and utter ruggedness 2) wide availability of accessories like beauty dishes, speed rings, grids, diffusers, barn doors, and speed ring MOUNTING KITS that are tough and easy to screw-on or machine-bolt-and-washers-and-nuts bolt on or epoxy on to damned near anything 3) simple design 4) low,low price used 5) USA made, USA distributed, USA repaired, in Chicago.

For portraiture, the honeycomb grid, and the mylar snap-on diffusers sold by Speedotron are indispensible accessories. Portraiture is NOT about blasting light all over hell for a 1-meter softbox or a 1- or 2-meter umbrella....that's what the cheap-o companies push. The real, pro-oriented companies offer light SHAPING tools, and the ones Speedotron offers are many, and really what are needed.

OK ... the pack-and-head setup is starting to look more and more like the thing for me. Now I want to get into a more detailed conversation. I want to make sure I understand what I can and can't do.
I'm gathering that:
--Essentially, the given output of the power supply can be spread over as many lights as there are outlets. So let's say I have three lights ("heads", yes?). I want to push 400 Ws to the first light, 150 Ws to the second head, and 250 Ws to the third light. or any combination that doesn't exceed the rated capacity of the power supply
--So, I can add lights as I need in the future.
--The power supply is NOT a battery in any way. It needs AC power from a generator or the wall

So, my vision for getting "semi-serious" is (maybe?):
--doing portraits, art modeling, and small-product shots in a 10x12 converted spare bedroom (yes, I know ... tight space!)
--doing commissioned work at clients offices/homes (corporate group/exec photos)
--doing events (maybe up to 20 people in the frame at any one time)

For the Speedotron line, I've found the "DM802B CC 2-Light Travel System - 852335" kit which lists for about $1500. With this, I get:
-- 1x 800 Ws power supply
-- 2x M11 lights (each of which can output up to 1600 Ws) ... sounds like about all the light I'd ever need in a single head
-- Accessories, umbrellas, etc.

So if I think I need a third (or fourth) light, I can get it as I go. And if I ever need more total power, I can upgrade the pack and still be able to use the lights I've invested in.

How am I doing so far? Am I on track?

 

[chuasam]

I have an old alien bees. Inexpensive and very fragile. I also got profoto. Yes they're expensive but they're so durable. If you are a super heavy user, skip the amateur stuff and go heavy duty.

I used broncolor at my old job. Amazingly tough and can do 8 hr shoots 7 days a week all year round.

Dynalite isn't bad for the money. Speedotron brown line - avoid. Black line is good but cumbersome. Elinchrom dlite is good for the money and then you can expand into their ranger and RX series.

I've not tried balcar.

 

[tirediron]

You're close. Using the 800 w/s pack as an example (I have the same one), you have two modes (symmetrical and asymmetrical) and two power levels 800 w/s (full) and 400 w/s (half). When in symmetrical mode, if you connect one light to the pack you will get 800 w/s from that light in full power or 400 w/s in half. If you connect two lights, you will get 400 w/s in full and 200 w/s in half power... In asymmetrical, the power is divided up differentially with outlets 1 & 2 getting more than 3 & 4.

This image is for a 400 w/s pack, but it shows you how the output breaks down per light in each mode (and all you need to do is double the values to get that of an 800 w/s pack)

is for a 1600 w/s pack, but explains how they work very well. The only difference is that your 800 w/s pack will not have the 'low' power setting.

This kit seems like a pretty good deal.

 

[tirediron]

... Speedotron brown line - avoid...

Out of curiosity, why? I use a Brownline setup for a lot of work, and when you compare price, quality, and reliability, it's hard to beat IMO.

 

[Derrel]

The Speedotron Brown Line 802 pack is too powerful for today's average d-slr user. The D402 is the one you want. It's REALLY designed to be used as part of a 4-light setup. I have a lot of Broqwn Line gear, and a lot of Black Line gear. My favorite Black Linbe stuff is now discontinued: the D405 pack, and the D805 packs. I still have those two, plus two, 2400 W-s packs.

A 4-light D402 system on eBay is about $300-$400. The M11 flash heads with standard flashtubes can accept up to 1,600 Watt-seconds through any one, single flash tube yes, and can last up to 31 YEARS, based on my OWN, personal set of three 1986 M-11 flash heads...The M-11 is the "best" head for versatility, but they make others. The M-90 is a useful for umbrellas and main light and background lighting. The Mw3U is a nice, very small flash head that sells for $40-$50 ion e-Bay, with a standard, 400 Watt-second tube.

Brown Line is for people who know what they need, in terms of light, and for people who HAVE ALL THE STUFF needed to use it right. it lacks fine power control at the pack!!!!! It has NO click-stop flash control. It is however, VERY low-cost on the used market. Seriously though--DO NOT BUY a D802 pack! It's meant for low-ISO work, and it is TOO powerful with a d-slr that has an ISO base of 100 or 200. The D402 is the one to buy, or the older D202 as an ancillary power pack. To use a Brown Line system easily, it helps to have a splitter, and the Tri-Level control, and or to really know the power combos inside and out, and to have multiple, low-cost packs. Used D402's are $125 each on eBay. I have two now, gave one to a friend.

I really prefer the Black Line, and the click-stop variable power controls. The D405 is nice, and so is the 805. The 2401's have six outlets, and plenty of power, and are also very low-priced on the used market. I like the Variable Focusing heads in Black Line, but also have 103 and 102 heads too. You are mostly right about how pack and head system work, but ratios are more-fixed than you might think on Brown Line, and more-variable on Black Line. You can watch my "derrelator videos" for Brown Line overviews.

 

[kdthomas]

The more I look at it now, though ... it seems I have to do a bunch of splitting, dividing, etc. etc. with the pack/head systems.

My vision was (is this unrealistic?), I take a shot, then look over at the image on the tethered iPad/Computer/whatever, and I think, "gee, let's pull back 1/2 a stop on the light to her left, and see if we can deepen that shadow a bit, and come up 1/3 stop on the hair light". It sounds like I'm going to have to switch out cables and do a whole bunch of calculations, while my model sits. It seems I have less choice about the power output at each individual light.

From what I've seen of the monolight systems, you go over to the light, adjust the power down or up a couple of clicks, and shoot again, until you have it dialed in just right.

Am I misunderstanding the different systems?

 

[kdthomas]

The more I look at it now, though ... it seems I have to do a bunch of splitting, dividing, etc. etc. with the pack/head systems.

My vision was (is this unrealistic?), I take a shot, then look over at the image on the tethered iPad/Computer/whatever, and I think, "gee, let's pull back 1/2 a stop on the light to her left, and see if we can deepen that shadow a bit, and come up 1/3 stop on the hair light". It sounds like I'm going to have to switch out cables and do a whole bunch of calculations, while my model sits. It seems I have less choice about the power output at each individual light.

From what I've seen of the monolight systems, you go over to the light, adjust the power down or up a couple of clicks, and shoot again, until you have it dialed in just right.

Am I misunderstanding the different systems?

Wait ... maybe I would use gels / grids / barn doors for this? That sounds like I would have even finer control than 1/x stop increments.

 

[chuasam]

... Speedotron brown line - avoid...

Out of curiosity, why? I use a Brownline setup for a lot of work, and when you compare price, quality, and reliability, it's hard to beat IMO.

I've honestly only used the black line in school. My mentor said to avoid the brown line.

 

[Derrel]

The more I look at it now, though ... it seems I have to do a bunch of splitting, dividing, etc. etc. with the pack/head systems.

My vision was (is this unrealistic?), I take a shot, then look over at the image on the tethered iPad/Computer/whatever, and I think, "gee, let's pull back 1/2 a stop on the light to her left, and see if we can deepen that shadow a bit, and come up 1/3 stop on the hair light". It sounds like I'm going to have to switch out cables and do a whole bunch of calculations, while my model sits. It seems I have less choice about the power output at each individual light.

From what I've seen of the monolight systems, you go over to the light, adjust the power down or up a couple of clicks, and shoot again, until you have it dialed in just right.

Am I misunderstanding the different systems?

You want the shadow 1/2 stop deeper...you grab the light stand and move the light back six inches. You want the hair light 1/3 stop up? You nudge it closer to the subject a few inches, OR open up the barn doors 1/2 inch. You want a precise 1/3 stop global gain, you move from ISO 100 to ISO 125. yes, the idea of click-stop control is a very powerful lure. As a portraiture system, the D402 has been designed for pretty much the way people "actually shoot" using real world umbrellas, soft boxes, and reflectors with grids.

The typical 3:1 ratio is two lights of EQUAL output, one at say 5.6 feet distant for a main light, and a fill light exactly 8 feet away. See the f/stops represented there? 5.6 feet main light, 8 feet fill. Mathematics underly the f/stop system! OR--and this is simply math, you can achieve the 3:1 ratio by using one light of 200 Watt-seconds and a second light at the same distance, but at 100 Watt-seconds.

Back to 5.6 feet and 8 feet. Let's round and call it 7 feet and 8 feet...See how far a light needs to be moved to get one, full f/stop worth of difference?

The real mistake you're making is a fundamental thinking error, that one simply uses the machine to "dial it in just right". No, that's not how lighting actually works. The real key is a human being literally MOVING lights, by hand, and using the human eye and brain to SEE the effect that looks just right. The critical factor is actually moving the lights through an arc, and up and down, in real-time, and using the human eye to evaluate where the light looks best. You can shoot all day with a main and fill of the same power if you know how to light. Two exactly matched lights of the same size work surprisingly well, using simple distance to get precise balances and precise shadow and highlight placement.

The Brown Line system is very simple. The light modifiers it has: grids, diffusers, scrims, barn doors, are very standard light controls. Then there are boxes, scrims, reflectors, and umbrellas. The output choices are EQUAL light, or standardized differentials, or half the output of the standard differential with a splitter. Precise, incremental light control is done by moving the lights 2,3,4,5,6 inches closer or farther. It's like a car with a 3-speed automatic transmission....you do not have gear 1.0,1.3, 1.6,2.0,2.3,2.6,and 3.0. You have gears 1,2, and 3, and can cover all speeds from 1 MPH to 120 MPH.

 

[CameraClicker]

Not sure what the sticky thread was.
How much versatility you desire makes a difference. Shooting people and products in a studio I use Bowens because they run on wall power and are large and impressive looking -- more so with heavy stands and large soft boxes. Shooting where I have to carry in gear, I use Canon Speedlites. Very lightweight stands with smaller softboxes or umbrellas, sometimes even just their own little feet. Speedlights don't weigh anything (relative to a Bowens 500WS strobe), can be ganged together to get more output, or spread around for coverage. Without a softbox or umbrella they don't catch wind, but the light is harsher. Shooting interiors, you can hide them in regular household lamps to make it look like the lights are on, or you can hide them behind things for accent lighting.
The Bowens lights are too slow, as are most strobes, for stopping action like water drops. Einsteins are the exception but I don't live in the US and don't know if the Einsteins were ever given the necessary electrical certifications for use here. Speedlites are fast enough, so if I need a really brief flash, I use them even in the studio.

 

[kdthomas]

You want the shadow 1/2 stop deeper...you grab the light stand and move the light back six inches. You want the hair light 1/3 stop up? You nudge it closer to the subject a few inches, OR open up the barn doors 1/2 inch. You want a precise 1/3 stop global gain, you move from ISO 100 to ISO 125. yes, the idea of click-stop control is a very powerful lure. As a portraiture system, the D402 has been designed for pretty much the way people "actually shoot" using real world umbrellas, soft boxes, and reflectors with grids.

(slapping forehead) Doh! Of course, how obvious ... Just move the light! Sometimes it's the most obvious thing that escapes me, LOL. :banghead:

The typical 3:1 ratio is two lights of EQUAL output, one at say 5.6 feet distant for a main light, and a fill light exactly 8 feet away. See the f/stops represented there? 5.6 feet main light, 8 feet fill. Mathematics underly the f/stop system! OR--and this is simply math, you can achieve the 3:1 ratio by using one light of 200 Watt-seconds and a second light at the same distance, but at 100 Watt-seconds.

Back to 5.6 feet and 8 feet. Let's round and call it 7 feet and 8 feet...See how far a light needs to be moved to get one, full f/stop worth of difference?

Right, the same math functions would apply as f-stop, since it's a function of area which divides by the square of distance (or radius). Makes sense.

The real mistake you're making is a fundamental thinking error, that one simply uses the machine to "dial it in just right". No, that's not how lighting actually works. The real key is a human being literally MOVING lights, by hand, and using the human eye and brain to SEE the effect that looks just right. The critical factor is actually moving the lights through an arc, and up and down, in real-time, and using the human eye to evaluate where the light looks best. You can shoot all day with a main and fill of the same power if you know how to light. Two exactly matched lights of the same size work surprisingly well, using simple distance to get precise balances and precise shadow and highlight placement.

Sure, I gotcha ... And if I understand correctly, by having the modeling lights on, I can sort of "preview" the shot, shoot, evaluate it on the tethered machine, adjust, shoot, eval, lather rinse repeat ...

The Brown Line system is very simple. The light modifiers it has: grids, diffusers, scrims, barn doors, are very standard light controls. Then there are boxes, scrims, reflectors, and umbrellas. The output choices are EQUAL light, or standardized differentials, or half the output of the standard differential with a splitter. Precise, incremental light control is done by moving the lights 2,3,4,5,6 inches closer or farther. It's like a car with a 3-speed automatic transmission....you do not have gear 1.0,1.3, 1.6,2.0,2.3,2.6,and 3.0. You have gears 1,2, and 3, and can cover all speeds from 1 MPH to 120 MPH.

Right so in this analogy, changing to a more powerful light head/ power output is akin to shifting gears, modifying the light at the head ( with moving the light farther/nearer, grids, barndoors, etc) is akin to using the accelerator.

Now how am I doing?

Now ... from what I've heard so far ... it seems like a Brown Line 402 3 light kit with 2 M90's and a hair light is where it's at. That lists for $1400 and will leave me a little room for wireless remotes and some barndoors (i have umbrellas already)