What's new

Sharpness is Overrated!

Status
Not open for further replies.

Bitter Jeweler

Been spending a lot of time on here!
Joined
Apr 27, 2009
Messages
12,983
Reaction score
5,003
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
Can others edit my Photos
Photos OK to edit
Pictorial Photography in America 1920

Pictorial Photography in America 1921

Pictorial Photography in America 1922


Well, is it?

Have we become so technology crazed, and lust so much for perfection, that we forget the beauty that came before us, with much less? I do realize this was all cutting edge at the time. But I think when we talk about image quality, we are always going towards perfection, rather than discussing image qualities which could be quite soft but still be an exceptional image.

In these books, there are ads for lenses, most of which are selling their softness, or quality of diffusion. There are a few that advertise sharpness, though.

In these books, there're many, many, amazing, outstanding images. Look how soft they are. I am really intrigued by this history. Would any one, or all of these images be better if they were sharp as today's standards? There's only a few that in would say yes to.

Derrel, how would one go about duplicating this sort of softness using todays technology?
Could something be done to a screw on filter to mimic this style with current lens selection?
Could something be done to the lens element, creating dedicated soft lenses?
Is it more than just the lens, and includes paper choices, film choices, etc?
 
You've said this before and I find it encouraging,And I apologize if I missed the point in the link in my last thread, I'm unable to click the link at the moment (device I'mUsing denies pop ups) so Now I know the point you were trying to make. I quite enjoy the composition in a lot of my photos, but the reason I said shooting with a faulty camera that can't focus seems pointless since it seems a photo can't be good unless it's sharp. I still believe I have good photos despite not being the sharpest (don't get me wrong they're not fuzzy lol) but I do believe lack of sharpness is a technical fault.
 
Last edited:
So is it possible I still have good photos despite the lack of sharpness?

It would very much depend on the photo. Of a foggy marsh, sharpness is not so much a concern as the atmosphere and feel of the shot. As a matter of fact, sharpness could detract from such an image. Most any other type of shot, sharpness matters.
 
IMHO, art is subjective and that was something acceptable for that time period. However, it is a piece of history that can never be truly recreated. You can try to reproduce the style but it is nothing more than a reproduction without a real story attached. It is no longer one of a kind, a true moment in history.
 
Pictorial Photography in America 1920

Pictorial Photography in America 1921

Pictorial Photography in America 1922


Well, is it?

Have we become so technology crazed, and lust so much for perfection, that we forget the beauty that came before us, with much less? I do realize this was all cutting edge at the time. But I think when we talk about image quality, we are always going towards perfection, rather than discussing image qualities which could be quite soft but still be an exceptional image.

In these books, there are ads for lenses, most of which are selling their softness, or quality of diffusion. There are a few that advertise sharpness, though.

In these books, there're many, many, amazing, outstanding images. Look how soft they are. I am really intrigued by this history. Would any one, or all of these images be better if they were sharp as today's standards? There's only a few that in would say yes to.

Derrel, how would one go about duplicating this sort of softness using todays technology?
Could something be done to a screw on filter to mimic this style with current lens selection?
Could something be done to the lens element, creating dedicated soft lenses?
Is it more than just the lens, and includes paper choices, film choices, etc?

There were some pretty clever optical designs in terms of lenses that produced wonderfully soft focus, or ghosty, flare-prone images. The famous Rodenstock Imagon lens used a diaphragm mechanism that had a BUNCH of small holes, which were selectable by the photographer, based upon the softness of the image. Here's a modern video showing an Imagon 200mm lens, used on a GH1 digital camera.

Screw-on filters work pretty well to create dreamy images. I have a collection of various softening and diffusing filters. Window screening material works wonderfully well with longer focal length lenses...in the early 1980's, I did a series of images which were shot through the Visqueen (storm windows) of the house where my father and I lived. That gave a very soft, impressionistic quality to the images. Plain UV or clear filters, sprayed with hairspray, clear lacquer, or smeared with Vaseline petroleum jelly--all three of those methods are pretty well-known. "Hairspray filters" give one type of effect. "Black netting diffusers" give another type of effect, a lot like window screen. Using two, or even three cross-star filters can work also. Fog filters work pretty well. Hell, for that matter, shooting in REAL FOG is a fun way to get pictorial-type images without any special techniques!!! (real foggy conditions--imagine that!!)

There ARE dedicated soft focus lenses. Nikon's 105mm f/2 and 135mm f/2 AF-D series lenses have Defocus Control, and allow you to defocus the image and create a misty, soft look that is very repeatable. THe effect looks a lot like a good-quality Zeiss Softon filter. Canon makes a very affordable, 135mm f/2.8 Soft Focus lens that has a sharp setting, and then two separate settings for softer, and then really soft-focus images. Minolta used to make a very impressive soft focus lens with some radical lens design that created impeccably smooth bokeh. The Lensbaby line is also
a line of soft focus + tilt lenses...I own some Lensbaby stuff...I actually prefer their ORIGINAL, with the bad single-element design, with loads of CA, over the 2.0 model that has a multi-element lens and which is much sharper.

The old-time pictorialists had some pretty involved print-making and negative-handling methods. Retouching on the negatives was common, as were operations like reducing and intensifying, hand-accelerated development, fogging of paper, pre-fogging of sheets of film, "knocking" the camera once or twice during longer exposures, shooting toward bright lights, and of course, finding lenses that delivered the Kind of images that were appropriate to the artistic intent. Pictorialism was big wayyyy before lens coating was invented, so multi-element lenses and "fast" lenses were much more prone to light loss due to internal reflection than later, coated lenses would be. The lenses of that time were, for the most part, more prone to flare and veiling (overall) glare at their wider aperture settings, so if a person shot with the lens at a weaker-performing aperture, its imaging characteristics would reflect that.

It is a mistake to think that ALL lenses of that era were junky: I saw an old folding Kodak camera's lens, made circa 1915, whose lens had been removed from the camera, and rigged up to shoot on a Sony d-slr. The image quality of the lens was pretty damned good, by modern standards. But there were also quite a few lenses that were designed to produce softer, less-aggressive contrast and less-aggressive sharpness, and those lenses were highly sought-after by people who wanted to create the more-dreamy "pictorialist" type images.

Sharpness IS OVERRATED in my opinion. Some of the greatest photographs ever made have some unsharpness due to subject blur, or camera shake, or bad focus, etc. Millions of wonderful snapshots and family pictures have flaws in them. Some great sports, news, and action shots are "flawed". If a photo lacks that certain something, it does not matter how sharp it is, it's not much of a photo. If a photo happens to HAVE that certain something, then it's a good photo. Maybe even a great photo. People who think that "only" sharp, clear, frozen images are valid are usually uneducated in the fine arts and are visually quite, how can I say this....they're visually quite plebian... They are the kind of people who rejected impressionist painting because, "it's all blurry and I can't tell what it's supposed to be about."
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Ellsworth Toohey is taking over our society.

No, sharpness is not overrated. Being able to achieve a sharp photo of a subject is an essential skill a photographer must have. Knowing when not to do that is a nuance very few will ever achieve, but that is not to say that skill is not worthwhile. But to chase after certain 'iconic' photos that are 'great' and 'soft' doesn't mean newer photos can be 'iconic', 'great' and 'soft'. Those were the best possible of the day...it wasn't a matter of artistic interpretation. They just couldn't do any better.

Those are recorded moments of history that are made great solely due to proximity.

It's where your expression 'f/8 and be there' comes from. If you take a photo of a great moment, you have suceeded...

Well, there is a difference between a great shot and a photo of a great moment.

FWIW, Iconic and Masterpiece are what happen when a great shot occurs during a great moment...
 
Last edited:
It should be pointed out that a good number of those images which Bitter linked us to are prob. gum prints, and a big part of gum prints is in the surface quality.

I've made enough gum prints to tell you, they are REALLY effin' hard to master.

-----

I am not sure how I feel about this sharpness thing. I spent an entire day shooting with a lens that is really fickle only to come home with a bunch of blurry pictures - and not at all appealing. This guy uses the same lens and gets lovely soft focus effects, whereas I get a giant mess. I think softness works, but it's extremely hard to control and takes a level of letting go:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/raymonddukes/6393577023/in/photostream/

(^^not me)
 
Last edited:
IMHO, art is subjective and that was something acceptable for that time period. However, it is a piece of history that can never be truly recreated. You can try to reproduce the style but it is nothing more than a reproduction without a real story attached. It is no longer one of a kind, a true moment in history.
I agree that it is not a good idea to slavishly try and re-create prior artistic movements; while that's an interesting exercise, it does not advance the state of art, and is merely copy-catting. BUT, and this is the interesting thing, the idea, the value of, and the appreciation for LESS-THAN-MAXIMUM sharpness in photography is a concept that has NEVER, EVER totally died out. In fact, I would say that right now, 2011, is the era of the absolute PEAK of modern pictorialism. What you say? Well...head over to the App Store and check out Hipstamatic...

We have had the Diana plastic-lens 120 rollfilm camera in the 1970's...one of my all-time favorite pictorialist-influenced fine art photographers, Sheila Metzner, whose early 1970's work really reminds me of the pictorialist ethos, and whose 2000 New York portfolio has a very,very old-time feel to it.Holden Luntz Gallery The Holga craze was big for a while. "Lomography" ought to ring a bell for some people. In the 1960's Ernst Haas did a lot of very slow speed, hand-held work, which is in many ways, a rather pictorial and impressionistic way of rendering the world. A guy, using some of the world's finest Leicaflex lenses...and yet, shooting lots of images at 1/2 second hand-held, or slower...interesting, no? I'll repeat it again: people who cannot appreciate any image that is deliberately made LESS-THAN-MAXIMALLY-SHARP, have lowbrow, plebian taste. They also probably cannot appreciate classical music, jazz, fine wine, gourmet cooking, or cheese that comes in wax, and not individually wrapped in single-slice servings...those who are uneducated in the fine arts typically have a pretty narrow point of view of what is required of "photography". If they do not like it, it is "crap".

But today, we have the "Hipstamatic" type of software that makes images LESS-sharp, and less-accurate in color, and mottled and messed up, and LESS-THAN-MAXIMALLY-SHARP. I am positive that there are many thousands more copies of Hipstamatic in use than there ever were copies of the Imagon lens made.
 
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/28015/28015-pdf.pdfI do realize this was all cutting edge at the time.

and probably as sharp as they could get. You mentioned their advertising the softness, don't you think that's just good marketing? If you can't get a super sharp lens, advertise the beautiful softness. Companies don't usually advertise the negative, they'll find a positive spin to put on it.

The more interesting question, imho, is whether or not the photogs of that time would have jumped at the chance of using our super sharp lenses of today... We will never know. One thing I know however is that some photogs have built their career on a certain softness/dreaminess/haziness in their images, such as this guy:
http://www.google.fr/search?q=david....,cf.osb&fp=7dd130d999135b65&biw=1108&bih=790


That said, I agree that we are overly concerned with sharpness. A boring yet super sharp image is still boring. A beautiful image that is not so sharp is still a beautiful image. :)
 
I think there is just a gap between sharp and intentionally unsharp that should be avoided (although there are always exceptions to the rule). A picture that was meant to be sharp by the photographer but turns out with a bit of blur won't work. A picture that was set up to have some unsharpness can work out very well because the photographer took it into consideration before taking the picture.

Not sure I'm making any sense
 
I think there is just a gap between sharp and intentionally unsharp that should be avoided (although there are always exceptions to the rule). A picture that was meant to be sharp by the photographer but turns out with a bit of blur won't work. A picture that was set up to have some unsharpness can work out very well because the photographer took it into consideration before taking the picture.

Not sure I'm making any sense

I follow this.

I looked at some of the photos in the 1922 link. Those photos have a lot of grain.
 
The idea that they couldn't achieve sharpness in the 1920's so they made the best of it seems off-base to me. There are plenty of photos from that era and even before that are sharp. Even Boulevard du Temple by Daguerre in 1838 or 1839 looks pretty sharp to me (other than the people moving in it). Lots of portraits of the day are sharp. We have fairly sharp photos of Lincoln from the 1860's.

No, I'm not buying the idea that they couldn't make a sharp photo. Photographers then made artistic and compositional choices, just as we do today.
 
Last edited:
Many, if not most of the images we get to see these days are on the internet, and the resolution of those is limited by the size/resolution of the LCD screen. So 18+ megapickels get smooshed down to at best a few megs, much of the time. Any fine detail inherent in the original resolution gets lost. Sure, some continue to print and use the resolution inherent in those images, but very few, I'd suspect. Artistically, sharpness is another attribute of images that can inform and convey information. I would agree with BJ that in and of itself, sharpness IS overrated. But then, we tend to worship the techical achievements over esthetic ones.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

New Topics

Back
Top Bottom