Understanding the zone system.

[Spirit Vision Photography]

I guess I oversimplified the situation.

I said I like to meter on the object I am shooting but that is an oversimplification. The pictures I posted were examples of metering the entire view, they are typical of the photos I take.

However, when I want to shoot snow, I do not want the snow to be middle grey, so I have to open the aperture, based on the snow's spot meter reading. This was also an issue out West where the bright desert sun had turned everything to a narrow range of "shades of brown".

Looking at a landscape scene and deciding on what or where to place the middle grey is not so simple, I use my best estimate (guess) and the latitude modern films. Using a spot meter can provide the Zone System exposure range, but it cannot tell you where to place the middle grey.

I have been told that looking through a color filter can help by simulating a monotone view.

Kodak Wratten #90 filter.

 

[dxqcanada]

Many times when I get mentally lazy, or just want to shoot subjects under the same lighting, I go with an incident meter reading.

 

[Grandpa Ron]

If I had 1/100th of the knowledge that Ansel Adams had, I would be a happy camper.

Reading his book triligy I realized, that before he pushed the shutter release, Ansel knew in his mind, the exposure time and aperture, the type of developer he would use and the development time it would need, plus the grade of the paper he was going to print the picture on. His photos show he was a remarkable man and an encyclopedia of the photographic process.

 

[garygruber]

Some of you are close, but most are missing the point. #1. The Zone System doesn't really work with 35mm. Zones 3 - 5 are compressed on film this small. 120 and up with very slow film is your best bet.

#2. the point of the zone system is to ensure you have tonal values from Zone 3 through Zone 8. #8 usually gets blocked up and #3 is usually indistinguishable from #4 unless you know what you are doing and are using the best possible developer. I found that Pyro based developers are the only ones that give you effective transition from Zone 3 through 8. You measure where you want the maximum amount of shadow definition, then measure your zone 8 and see if they are more or less than 5 stops apart. This determines if you are doing a 'push' or a 'pull'.

You must ruthlessly experiment with your film / developer combo to see if you have the ability to adjust developing time to give you maximum definition of gray tones.

And here is the bad news. None of this really matters anymore because there is no decent printing paper (heavily laden with silver) that will permit the rendering of all the tonalities in your image. I used graded Agfa Portriga Rapid (never RC and never polycontrast) and Forte Elegance exclusively. Forte had the most silver of any paper available. They have been gone for over 30 years. The crap available today is absolutely worthless. I developed my film so normal was Grade 3, not 2. This gives more punch in the shadows. The easiest way to do this is to leave a light yellow filter on the lens all the time and NOT to correct for it when metering.

Also, you use a two part developer bath for the paper that let's you alter the contrast of graded paper by the A/B values of the two chemicals. Learning to use all of these very dangerous chemicals together takes years of practice. I know, I spent over 30 years honing my skills in the darkroom.

That's not to say you can't benefit by learning the Zone System today, it's just that you can no longer achieve the really symphonic prints that required the best papers.

 

[AlanKlein]

Some of you are close, but most are missing the point. #1. The Zone System doesn't really work with 35mm. Zones 3 - 5 are compressed on film this small. 120 and up with very slow film is your best bet.

#2. the point of the zone system is to ensure you have tonal values from Zone 3 through Zone 8. #8 usually gets blocked up and #3 is usually indistinguishable from #4 unless you know what you are doing and are using the best possible developer. I found that Pyro based developers are the only ones that give you effective transition from Zone 3 through 8. You measure where you want the maximum amount of shadow definition, then measure your zone 8 and see if they are more or less than 5 stops apart. This determines if you are doing a 'push' or a 'pull'.

You must ruthlessly experiment with your film / developer combo to see if you have the ability to adjust developing time to give you maximum definition of gray tones.

And here is the bad news. None of this really matters anymore because there is no decent printing paper (heavily laden with silver) that will permit the rendering of all the tonalities in your image. I used graded Agfa Portriga Rapid (never RC and never polycontrast) and Forte Fortisimo exclusively. Forte had the most silver of any paper available. They have been gone for over 30 years. The crap available today is absolutely worthless. I developed my film so normal was Grade 3, not 2. This gives more punch in the shadows. The easiest way to do this is to leave a light yellow filter on the lens all the time and NOT to correct for it when metering.

Also, you use a two part developer bath for the paper that let's you alter the contrast of graded paper by the A/B values of the two chemicals. Learning to use all of these very dangerous chemicals together takes years of practice. I know, I spent over 30 years honing my skills in the darkroom.

That's not to say you can't benefit by learning the Zone System today, it's just that you can no longer achieve the really symphonic prints that required the best papers.

Gary, What film do you use or recommend that provides the best tonal range?

 

[garygruber]

Gary, What film do you use or recommend that provides the best tonal range?

Ilford FP4 or Ilford Pan F

 

[Dikkie]

I guess it depends on the time zones aswel.

How Photos Handles Time Zones when Import… - Apple Community

discussions.apple.com

And the time of the day!!
What's your fav time of the day?
Mine is blue hour ^^

 

[Grandpa Ron]

Some of you are close, but most are missing the point. #1. The Zone System doesn't really work with 35mm. Zones 3 - 5 are compressed on film this small. 120 and up with very slow film is your best bet.

#2. the point of the zone system is to ensure you have tonal values from Zone 3 through Zone 8. #8 usually gets blocked up and #3 is usually indistinguishable from #4 unless you know what you are doing and are using the best possible developer. I found that Pyro based developers are the only ones that give you effective transition from Zone 3 through 8. You measure where you want the maximum amount of shadow definition, then measure your zone 8 and see if they are more or less than 5 stops apart. This determines if you are doing a 'push' or a 'pull'.

You must ruthlessly experiment with your film / developer combo to see if you have the ability to adjust developing time to give you maximum definition of gray tones.

And here is the bad news. None of this really matters anymore because there is no decent printing paper (heavily laden with silver) that will permit the rendering of all the tonalities in your image. I used graded Agfa Portriga Rapid (never RC and never polycontrast) and Forte Elegance exclusively. Forte had the most silver of any paper available. They have been gone for over 30 years. The crap available today is absolutely worthless. I developed my film so normal was Grade 3, not 2. This gives more punch in the shadows. The easiest way to do this is to leave a light yellow filter on the lens all the time and NOT to correct for it when metering.

Also, you use a two part developer bath for the paper that let's you alter the contrast of graded paper by the A/B values of the two chemicals. Learning to use all of these very dangerous chemicals together takes years of practice. I know, I spent over 30 years honing my skills in the darkroom.

That's not to say you can't benefit by learning the Zone System today, it's just that you can no longer achieve the really symphonic prints that required the best papers.

Gary,

You have defined the issue perfectly, basically fine art film and paper is becoming a lost art. While it will never disappear, it will become less relevant to succeeding generations; kind of like the Hot Rods and Muscle cars I grew up with. What is viewed as the perfect print, will change with the opinions of those folks still practicing the fun of wet chemistry developing, and materials available to them.

 

[Spirit Vision Photography]

Some of you are close, but most are missing the point. #1. The Zone System doesn't really work with 35mm. Zones 3 - 5 are compressed on film this small. 120 and up with very slow film is your best bet.

#2. the point of the zone system is to ensure you have tonal values from Zone 3 through Zone 8. #8 usually gets blocked up and #3 is usually indistinguishable from #4 unless you know what you are doing and are using the best possible developer. I found that Pyro based developers are the only ones that give you effective transition from Zone 3 through 8. You measure where you want the maximum amount of shadow definition, then measure your zone 8 and see if they are more or less than 5 stops apart. This determines if you are doing a 'push' or a 'pull'.

You must ruthlessly experiment with your film / developer combo to see if you have the ability to adjust developing time to give you maximum definition of gray tones.

And here is the bad news. None of this really matters anymore because there is no decent printing paper (heavily laden with silver) that will permit the rendering of all the tonalities in your image. I used graded Agfa Portriga Rapid (never RC and never polycontrast) and Forte Elegance exclusively. Forte had the most silver of any paper available. They have been gone for over 30 years. The crap available today is absolutely worthless. I developed my film so normal was Grade 3, not 2. This gives more punch in the shadows. The easiest way to do this is to leave a light yellow filter on the lens all the time and NOT to correct for it when metering.

Also, you use a two part developer bath for the paper that let's you alter the contrast of graded paper by the A/B values of the two chemicals. Learning to use all of these very dangerous chemicals together takes years of practice. I know, I spent over 30 years honing my skills in the darkroom.

That's not to say you can't benefit by learning the Zone System today, it's just that you can no longer achieve the really symphonic prints that required the best papers.

Do you remember the Oriental Seagull papers?

 

[Grandpa Ron]

A way back when I was doing prints, I was first married. I bought the least expensive materials at the local camera shop.

I see it is available again. There will always be someone to fill a market need. I will be interesting to see if the customer base is large enough to sustain the market