i wonder...

[Jeff Canes]

No to brutally honest, I like the love fest:hugs:

Agree with Amanda approach. And not knowing the backgrounds of all the members you need to be careful. Not to affined anyone in my opinion especially with newbes to both the forum and photography.

In my honest opinion a few members are often overly brutal with newbes. This approach maybe fine with old members, but may drive away new ones.

 

[Hertz van Rental]

I don't think that honesty and being brutal have to go together. It's all in your choice of words and your approach.
But if you read the blurb in the Forum index it says:
"This forum is for serious critique, so expect brutal responses if you post here."
So if people post in there and then get miffed if someone is a little hard they can't say they weren't warned.

 

[Mike Jordan]

There is two sides to every critique... the person giving the critique and the person receiving it. Most people will listen to what they want to hear in a critique. If they get 5 "nice job" type posts and one "bad composition", even if the image is a bad composition, the person listens to the other 5. It's human nature.

I also agree that some people do not know how to give a critique. They think being really rude and degrading is being brutally honest. Even some photographers that know what they are talking about think this. Frankly, I don't care how much they know or how famous they are, there is never a reason to degrade someone when they are asking for an honest critique. But I see it on the message boards all the time.

When I give my opinion (which is really all that anything that is said is... someone's opinion) I try to tell what I find good about it as well as what could have been different that might have improved it. Usually, I am not just typing for the person that posted the image either... I'm typing for the other people that are reading and maybe didn't see it or didn't think about the change themselves.

Mike

 

[Mike Jordan]

I don't think that honesty and being brutal have to go together. It's all in your choice of words and your approach.
But if you read the blurb in the Forum index it says:
"This forum is for serious critique, so expect brutal responses if you post here."
So if people post in there and then get miffed if someone is a little hard they can't say they weren't warned.

So are you saying that nobody has a right to be miffed, no matter what kind of critique they get? Unfortunately, some people take the word "brutal" to heart and do all they can to pound someone and their image. If people knew how to give critiques, then they wouldn't have to be "brutal" while being honest and it would be a lot more benifical to the person receiving it. And isn't that what getting a critique here is all about? Helping someone learn? Helping someone improve their work? Encourging them to keep trying? Or is that only secondary to being able to critique someone's work?

Mike

 

[terri]

So are you saying that nobody has a right to be miffed, no matter what kind of critique they get? Unfortunately, some people take the word "brutal" to heart and do all they can to pound someone and their image. If people knew how to give critiques, then they wouldn't have to be "brutal" while being honest and it would be a lot more benifical to the person receiving it. And isn't that what getting a critique here is all about? Helping someone learn? Helping someone improve their work? Encourging them to keep trying? Or is that only secondary to being able to critique someone's work?

Mike

I think it's unfortunate when people become miffed over receiving a poor review of the their work, however tactfully the poster may have put it.

But I'd agree there is a certain bluntness of style some posters seem to prefer to use when panning an image - the degree of being miffed can be in direct proportion to the degree of glee the poster has used during his critique. No one wants to hear "Not only does this image suck, but you must suck as a photographer overall to have posted this crap."

Is it this type of poster you were referring to, Mike? I'd have to agree they are of little value in the critique section. Unfortunately there is a personality type that needs to belittle others to feel better about themselves.

I like this thread so far. :thumbup: Please keep it civil; it's going to be monitored. :mrgreen:

 

[Hertz van Rental]

So are you saying that nobody has a right to be miffed, no matter what kind of critique they get? Unfortunately, some people take the word "brutal" to heart and do all they can to pound someone and their image. If people knew how to give critiques, then they wouldn't have to be "brutal" while being honest and it would be a lot more benifical to the person receiving it. And isn't that what getting a critique here is all about? Helping someone learn? Helping someone improve their work? Encourging them to keep trying? Or is that only secondary to being able to critique someone's work?

Mike

I didn't say that they have no 'right' to get miffed, just that they should expect to get the odd 'you're crap' comment.
A crit takes place between the photographer and the viewer. Both have to approach it in the same spirit.
If the photographer has a genuine desire to learn and improve then the person giving the crit should respect that and try to give serious help.
If the critiquer is genuinely trying to help the photographer improve then the photographer should respect that and understand that there are times when you can't say honest things in a gentle way. If it is said in the true spirit of trying to help then the photographer should try to see it positively.
It does appear, though, that some people giving crits are just there to slap down the opposition or massage their own egos.
In the final analysis, a crit is just a personal opinion and the photographer on the receiving end can take it or leave it as they feel inclined.

I think it is worth re-stating the philosophy of the critique Forum:

'The aim of this Critique Forum is to be a resource and learning centre for Forum users. It is a place where people can post pictures that they feel they need help with in some way in order to receive advice and guidance from other members.'

I wrote it because I believe it is the way it should be.

 

[Andrea K]

i think more honest opinions should be posted even in the photo gallery. when i post there it is either because i think it will be seen more or i dont want to get the picture seriously critiqued but i would still like to know whether people like it or not. most of the time when i get responses to my pictures its just a "cool" "nice" which is fine but at least write why it is cool or nice because i am interested in why someone likes my picture.

 

[Artemis]

Piccy subject this.
Being honest, I think Hertz is probably one of the wisest people I know, and I treat him with the respect he deserves.
And I think Hertz is again right, people are being stupid when they say Brutally honest...I pride myself on being honest, but im also often told im "Too nice" so being nice and honest can go hand in hand.
Remember critique isnt just saying "You could do that better" you can say nice stuff aswell, and I will try to be more honest on this forum from now on.

 

[thebeginning]

i think more honest opinions should be posted even in the photo gallery. when i post there it is either because i think it will be seen more or i dont want to get the picture seriously critiqued but i would still like to know whether people like it or not. most of the time when i get responses to my pictures its just a "cool" "nice" which is fine but at least write why it is cool or nice because i am interested in why someone likes my picture.

exactly.

 

[thebeginning]

Piccy subject this.
Being honest, I think Hertz is probably one of the wisest people I know, and I treat him with the respect he deserves.
And I think Hertz is again right, people are being stupid when they say Brutally honest...I pride myself on being honest, but im also often told im "Too nice" so being nice and honest can go hand in hand.
Remember critique isnt just saying "You could do that better" you can say nice stuff as well, and I will try to be more honest on this forum from now on.

heh, i thought that WAS nice!

 

[Artemis]

heh, i thought that WAS nice!

Honestly? Sorry had too.

Ill try and be more honest, but theres nothing wrong with defending someones feelings...

 

[Geronimo]

When I post up a photo, I hope to recieve some critisim on them. I mean that is why I post them up here most of the time. How can one, grow if you are only praised in all your photos? That is part of the reason, why I come and go from time to time on this forum. Not to drag the past back into the present, but I know that is why some others have not posted as much as they use to, besides all the other sorted details. While the lovefest is nice, how does one grow if they never as shown a way to improve?

 

[Mike Jordan]

I didn't say that they have no 'right' to get miffed, just that they should expect to get the odd 'you're crap' comment.
A crit takes place between the photographer and the viewer. Both have to approach it in the same spirit.
If the photographer has a genuine desire to learn and improve then the person giving the crit should respect that and try to give serious help.
If the critiquer is genuinely trying to help the photographer improve then the photographer should respect that and understand that there are times when you can't say honest things in a gentle way. If it is said in the true spirit of trying to help then the photographer should try to see it positively.
It does appear, though, that some people giving crits are just there to slap down the opposition or massage their own egos.

Yes, I do think some people do enjoy stroking their ego by making others feel lousy. But on the flip side, I think we can agree that there there are some people that are so thin skinned that if you even look at the thread with one eye, that they will get miffed. And then there are those that if they don't get at least half as many replies as the most popular poster on the forum, they get miffed and start whinning. And then there are those that don't wait to get miffed, they just start whinning with their first message.

'The aim of this Critique Forum is to be a resource and learning centre for Forum users. It is a place where people can post pictures that they feel they need help with in some way in order to receive advice and guidance from other members.'

I wrote it because I believe it is the way it should be.

And those are good words. Although a critique doesn't necessarilly mean they are looking for advice and guidance. They might be only looking for feelings and reaction from others to their image. Although it affects the outcome (people put to much thought in how the "feel" sometimes when asked to give their feelings), I guess people should state that when they post in the critique forum. Although to be honest (we are being honest here, right?) I think you are to quick to publicly jump on people when they post in the critique forum and forget to mention what kind of critique they are looking for. It seems most of the time I take a look at some post in the critique area the 2nd post is yours telling someone to follow the rules. I don't think you realize how much your post sets the tone for the whole thread.

Mike

 

[Hertz van Rental]

Although to be honest (we are being honest here, right?) I think you are to quick to publicly jump on people when they post in the critique forum and forget to mention what kind of critique they are looking for. It seems most of the time I take a look at some post in the critique area the 2nd post is yours telling someone to follow the rules. I don't think you realize how much your post sets the tone for the whole thread.

I'm afraid that JonMikal and I have to 'jump' on people if they ignore the guidelines in the Crit Forum - and we have to do it quick. It may be that we have to move or delete the post for one reason or another but once people start to reply then that makes it difficult.
If people then see that you can post images in there without following the guidelines then the whole notion of having guidelines becomes a nonsense.
The whole point of having guidelines was to give it a loose framework so that it became more structured and stopped being a free-for-all.
What had actualy happened was that some people were using the Crit Forum instead of the Photo Gallery to post their images - not because they wanted a crit but because they wanted their pictures to hang around longer.
Posting in the PG is so heavy at times that your post can disappear onto page 2 almost before you can blink. Posts in the CF tend to hang around longer.
The Management felt that the CF had lost it's way and that it needed to get back on track. To do this we had to have some kind of framework in there to regulate it. The least worst option was the guidelines and so...
The upside is that the CF is actualy starting to function and people are generally getting some good feedback. The downside is that it only works because the guidelines are enforced.
In an ideal world JonMikal and I would not have to intervene in there - but this requires everyone to read, and follow, the guidelines. It's getting there slowly. We are having to make far fewer posts telling people to toe the line than we did at the start.
If you read the posts in there we are becoming more flexible and relaxed about what people write. As long as they indicate that they want a crit - asking for people to look at specific areas or just give a general crit is entirely up to them.
We just believe that actualy asking for a crit is good manners and it helps make things run smoothly. A bit like saying please and thank you.

 

[Mike Jordan]

I'm afraid that JonMikal and I have to 'jump' on people if they ignore the guidelines in the Crit Forum - and we have to do it quick. It may be that we have to move or delete the post for one reason or another but once people start to reply then that makes it difficult.
If people then see that you can post images in there without following the guidelines then the whole notion of having guidelines becomes a nonsense.
The whole point of having guidelines was to give it a loose framework so that it became more structured and stopped being a free-for-all.

I can understand and it's not so much a complaint on my part as an observation of what I see. It's your house and your rules, I just wonder sometimes if you see it the way others do.

What had actualy happened was that some people were using the Crit Forum instead of the Photo Gallery to post their images - not because they wanted a crit but because they wanted their pictures to hang around longer.
Posting in the PG is so heavy at times that your post can disappear onto page 2 almost before you can blink. Posts in the CF tend to hang around longer.

So you are fighting the symptom rather than the cause? When I first joined there was a discussion about splitting up the Photo Gallery. Frankly you guys have way to many posts in that gallery to keep it a single gallery. That's why I don't post images any more. They dissappear too fast. And I know you guys say it's ok to bump images, but if everyone did that, you would have all of those images dissappear faster because you would have the new posts and all of the bumped images churning around on top of each other. So I don't post my images anymore and I don't leave as many comments as I did at first because more than likely the person that started the thread won't see it either because it will be buried to far for them to find it.

Again, this is the dicission of the board and how you guys want to run it. I understand that. But if people could get a reasonable chance to have their images viewed and commented on in other areas, it would ease up the pressure on the Critique Forum to be used for non-critique posts.

The Management felt that the CF had lost it's way and that it needed to get back on track. To do this we had to have some kind of framework in there to regulate it. The least worst option was the guidelines and so...
The upside is that the CF is actualy starting to function and people are generally getting some good feedback. The downside is that it only works because the guidelines are enforced.
In an ideal world JonMikal and I would not have to intervene in there - but this requires everyone to read, and follow, the guidelines. It's getting there slowly. We are having to make far fewer posts telling people to toe the line than we did at the start.

I have seen very few forums that didn't dry up if the owner in paticular and what ever moderators/staff didn't activelly particapate the forum and keep it flowing. I've been involved in electronic message forums like this since 1983 and you will never get everyone to follow the rules. Not if you keep getting new members. As soon as you seem to be getting it on track, you will get in several new members that won't read the rules. Or those that will read but not understand or interpret them different than how you want them followed. It's one of those never ending tasks. Think of it as job security.

If you read the posts in there we are becoming more flexible and relaxed about what people write. As long as they indicate that they want a crit - asking for people to look at specific areas or just give a general crit is entirely up to them.
We just believe that actualy asking for a crit is good manners and it helps make things run smoothly. A bit like saying please and thank you.

Yes, mother.

Anyway, since this was suppose to be a "What if I was honest" thread, I just posted some of my observations. When was the last time you guys had a critique of The Photo Forum anyway?

Mike