Lead based paint and asbestos

[jcdeboever]

I worked hard today at lunch on zone system and trying to produce a recognized approach at it. It is very difficult and hard to pre visualize. I am uneasy at this attempt but feel I am making progress. I have read the negative 4 times. I used a hand held Pentax spot meter, and several exposure adjustments in order to get a use able SOOC jpeg.

1.

2.

3.

 

[Derrel]

I'm not really convinced that the Zone System applies all that much to digital images, since (some of us at least) shoot on ISO-invariant sensors, and we can "develop" our digitial negatives with Plus-development, or Minus Development, or Normal development, whatever we choose! There is no "final" film negative that we work from...we can re-develop AND we can re-process our exposures anyway we want to, as many individual times as we want to. We're no longer bound by factory ISO and Development and our personalized Exposure Index settings for our "film".

As an aside, all three of these have a wide tonal range, but I think tyehg are too low in contrast...the brightest whites lack "Snap!", and the deepest blacks seem a bit weak to me. I think you need more local contrast--more differentiation between the tones.

 

[vintagesnaps]

That's what I was thinking, I don't see a 'white' white anywhere. But I read those Ansel Adams books years ago and didn't really get it at the time and keep meaning to get them out to reread since I learned darkroom work.

Nice photos, great subject, just a little adjustment ought to do it.

 

[jcdeboever]

I'm not really convinced that the Zone System applies all that much to digital images, since (some of us at least) shoot on ISO-invariant sensors, and we can "develop" our digitial negatives with Plus-development, or Minus Development, or Normal development, whatever we choose! There is no "final" film negative that we work from...we can re-develop AND we can re-process our exposures anyway we want to, as many individual times as we want to. We're no longer bound by factory ISO and Development and our personalized Exposure Index settings for our "film".

As an aside, all three of these have a wide tonal range, but I think tyehg are too low in contrast...the brightest whites lack "Snap!", and the deepest blacks seem a bit weak to me. I think you need more local contrast--more differentiation between the tones.

Ok. My goal is to dial in camera as opposed to post. Thank you, I am working at it. I am working at eliminating post, hopefully, I will get to a point where post is an advanced process.

 

[Ysarex]

I'm not really convinced that the Zone System applies all that much to digital images, since (some of us at least) shoot on ISO-invariant sensors, and we can "develop" our digitial negatives with Plus-development, or Minus Development, or Normal development, whatever we choose! There is no "final" film negative that we work from...we can re-develop AND we can re-process our exposures anyway we want to, as many individual times as we want to. We're no longer bound by factory ISO and Development and our personalized Exposure Index settings for our "film".

As an aside, all three of these have a wide tonal range, but I think tyehg are too low in contrast...the brightest whites lack "Snap!", and the deepest blacks seem a bit weak to me. I think you need more local contrast--more differentiation between the tones.

Ok. My goal is to dial in camera as opposed to post. Thank you, I am working at it. I am working at eliminating post, hopefully, I will get to a point where post is an advanced process.

They're very nice photos. I agree with Derrel that the Zone System does not apply to digital photo. There really isn't a digital corollary to the results that you get from changing film development times or paper grades.

I agree they would benefit from increased contrast. Given your desire to avoid post processing that leaves you the shadows/highlights adjustments in your camera which both alter contrast and the DR function which also alters contrast. That would be where you get a Zone System similarity. If you do use spot metering you can determine scene contrast range and then know what degree of shadow/highlight adjustment is appropriate.

Curious why the high ISO?

Joe

 

[Gary A.]

I echo all above on all points (at least all the points I remember).

#2 seems to have the best contrast ... I want to see a white-white ... but then I realize that maybe there isn't a white-white in the frame. The paint could be a light green or dark yellow rendering a white-white not only unattainable (in respect to the keeping the other zones true) but also undesirable.

I like the tighter framing of #1. #3 is the weakest of the three.

I also agree that Zone, as implemented by Adams, doesn't apply in digital ... but it will help as a metering concept. As Joe discussed, as you are bent in keeping all/most processing in-camera ... the limitations of in-camera processing can somewhat be translated to the finate environment of film.

What I appreciate your willingness to share an assignment/images which was less than successful and you knew prior to post that the images were less than successful. I hope we can collectively or individually help you in your quest for improvement.

 

[Derrel]

My last heavily-used Fuji was the S2 Pro digitial SLR...I shot a lot of in-camera JPEG with it...they had basically four parameters that the user could change, and one was image size, so that really didn;t count for much, As I recall, Fuji offered us three basic areas in which the user-selecrted choices weer very important to the final images: they had Saturation, Contrast, and Sharpening. Saturation was Org-Std-High, Contrast was Org-Std-High, and sharpening was like Off-Std-High. The way the S2 Pro was set up, those limited choices were actually pretty useful, and workable, as far as getting a great-looking SOOC JPEG image.

Tone Curve (AKA 'contrast') is pretty critical as far as how SOOC JPEG images are rendered, at least in my experience; nowadays Fuji offers film looks (Velvia,Acros,etc) as opposed to the old-days and Org-Std-High saturation...

Not sure about how the best way to go about using the new-generation Fuji cameras would be, but I think Contrast level could be a critical component, but then you've got the monkey wrench of how that applies with the various film simulation modes and their saturation/color individual profiles.

If there are many film profile looks, it might be best to learn just two, or three of them, and then work on Contrast level and how that can affect the SOOC images.

 

[Gary A.]

One would have hoped that lead paint with asbestos would have a half-life of 25,000+ years.

 

[jcdeboever]

I'm not really convinced that the Zone System applies all that much to digital images, since (some of us at least) shoot on ISO-invariant sensors, and we can "develop" our digitial negatives with Plus-development, or Minus Development, or Normal development, whatever we choose! There is no "final" film negative that we work from...we can re-develop AND we can re-process our exposures anyway we want to, as many individual times as we want to. We're no longer bound by factory ISO and Development and our personalized Exposure Index settings for our "film".

As an aside, all three of these have a wide tonal range, but I think tyehg are too low in contrast...the brightest whites lack "Snap!", and the deepest blacks seem a bit weak to me. I think you need more local contrast--more differentiation between the tones.

Ok. My goal is to dial in camera as opposed to post. Thank you, I am working at it. I am working at eliminating post, hopefully, I will get to a point where post is an advanced process.

They're very nice photos. I agree with Derrel that the Zone System does not apply to digital photo. There really isn't a digital corollary to the results that you get from changing film development times or paper grades.

I agree they would benefit from increased contrast. Given your desire to avoid post processing that leaves you the shadows/highlights adjustments in your camera which both alter contrast and the DR function which also alters contrast. That would be where you get a Zone System similarity. If you do use spot metering you can determine scene contrast range and then know what degree of shadow/highlight adjustment is appropriate.

Curious why the high ISO?

Joe

I was using a Pentax spot meter and comparing it to camera. I was experimenting and found it doesn't really apply but I had some concept stuck in my head that thought would translate but it doesn't. I guess I have to learn the hard way and read the book again. As far as ISO I was dealing with hand tremors this day, so I was trying to keep shutter speed up to compensate for a non OIS lens. These were in the shade.

 

[smoke665]

In following your posts, I know you've been really obsessed with SOOC images for a bit. While the concept is good if you're shooting a set of images for pay (less time involved in processing). When shooting for yourself in digital, the post stage can be just as important in the creative process. I've been striving to maximize the data in camera, which in turn allows more opportunities in post to be creative.

 

[Derrel]

I'm not sure that what the book says really translates to a color positive system, as opposed to a B&W negative film system. As I am typing, I saw smoke665 posted a comment, one I too what thinking about...the idea of capturing optimal data, as opposed to winding up with a perfect SOOC JPEG. My experience with my S2 Pro, back when its raw files were basically almost un-developable due to lack of software and primitive computers, I found that I could improve almost any SOOC withg a bit of Photoshop processing.

I get the idea of SOOC JPEG though. But I'm not convinced that's the way I want to shoot, since I think it does not preserve optimal data, but compromised data. Like smoke665 wrote, "I've been striving to maximize the data in camera, which in turn allows more opportunities in post to be creative." I think he's got a good idea there. But, I understand the desire to have images that are ready to go, immediately. Yet, at the same time, I want the raw image data so I can better manipulate the exposure a number of ways, without much in the way of limits imposed by what the camera-stage did!

 

[smoke665]

I know it's probably blasphemy but I'm not really that much of an Adams fan. The equipment and processing of the time likely dictated his process more so then any great revelation on his part. Would he be the genius that his admirers think if he were to be revived with today's technology? I suspect that there are several here on TPF that could blow him out of the water on a head to head competition.

 

[fmw]

You don't need the zone system. You are using digital. You have luxury of histograms that tell you exactly when and where you lost shadows and highlights. Let the histogram be your guide. Shoot, check and reshoot if you have anything lost in the histogram. By the way, I think spot meters are of questionable value with digital. That comment will raise some hackles. If you want a hand held meter, get one that does incident readings. The light can't fool an incident reading because there is no reflectivity.

 

[smoke665]

, hopefully, I will get to a point where post is an advanced process.

Just saw this statement you made. You have advanced so far in the past year, have you ever considered you might be at that advanced point now?

 

[jcdeboever]

, hopefully, I will get to a point where post is an advanced process.

Just saw this statement you made. You have advanced so far in the past year, have you ever considered you might be at that advanced point now?

Thanks. No, not really even close, at least in my mind. I really want to get good at it, consistently. I just don't think I'm even close. A lot of things still allude me. Flash being one that comes to mind. However, I am having a great deal of fun trying. Sometimes I bite off more than I can chew and I have to slow down. I am currently working on a cyanotype project and that has been real fun for me. I am loving it, I like working with my hands. I am going to pick up an enlarger someday and that probably will add to the journey or fill a gap in my creativity.