Need Help: Theoretical Pricing Question

[sm4him]

I am--finally--going to get to purchase a camera for work as was promised some months ago. But then, we changed general managers and fiscal years and it looked like the whole thing might be in the tank.
But, it just got approved, with the stipulation that the new GM wants something in writing to justify how the expense of a DSLR is going to save us money in the long run. She wants to know how much, on average, we think we'll save a year versus hiring a professional photographer and/or renting equipment.

I've got the renting equipment part of the equation handled, but I could use some help on the aspect of what we'd pay a professional for the kind of photography needs we have in a given year.

Last year, we did a series of photo shoots for an ad campaign, so I'd like to use that as the scenario. We had, I think, eight people (regular passengers, not models) who we picked to use for the campaign. I used my personal D7000 and 50mm lens and we rented another lens; I also used my personal speed light. These photos were shot inside city buses, but the buses were stationary. We did this over a period of three days, spending about 15-30 minutes on each person/group (mostly individuals, but one "couple" and one family of four). We did NOT use a makeup artist; just gave them some guidelines on what to wear, etc. and took them however they showed up.
So, basically, we had a total of about 3 or 4 hours shooting time. I processed probably no more than 8-10 pictures of each person, but then there were a few extra combinations thrown in, so let's say that I actually spent time processing 100 photos, LIGHTLY, and more detailed processing on maybe 30 photos.

We contracted with a designer to actually do the ads, so that doesn't play into the equation.

I'd like to know what YOU would charge, if you are a professional photographer, to do a similar shoot to this, for a governmental, non-profit organization. If there's additional information you'd require, let me know that as well.
Oh, this would be for, let's say, just for fun, 25 images, non-exclusive license for…umm…10 years. The initial use was for ads on the outside of buses (probably about 50), billboards (I think we had four, maybe five), and a mailout--no idea how many postcards we did for the mailout, but let's say 10,000.
However, we'd want the rights to use the images again for other promotional purposes over the following 10 years.

I KNOW that prices vary wildly from one photographer to another, and I know that geographical location can have a huge impact on pricing as well, but for this, I don't really care about any of that. I'd just like to have as much input on what different individuals would actually charge so that I can come up with a figure that will at least have SOME slight basis in reality.

Please don't just speculate on what you MIGHT do if you WERE in business, or tell me how incredibly unscientific and inaccurate this is (I already KNOW that, lol)--just give me a really rough, ballpark estimate on a realistic quote that you believe might have the possibility of landing you a job of this sort for your city's public transit system.

Please?
Thank you.

 

[tirediron]

$125/hour for image production. Non-exclusive, unlimited use for ten years? (Unlimited, since you're talking multiple and diverse media) I would estimate something in the order of $2000/image/year... BUT... From a purely practical basis, I doubt very much that you would want to license the images for ten years, since fashions will change, in all likelihood, the make/model/livery of the busses will change...

 

[sm4him]

$125/hour for image production. Non-exclusive, unlimited use for ten years? (Unlimited, since you're talking multiple and diverse media) I would estimate something in the order of $2000/image/year... BUT... From a purely practical basis, I doubt very much that you would want to license the images for ten years, since fashions will change, in all likelihood, the make/model/livery of the busses will change...

Thanks John. I said ten years based on some of the photos we DO still use from time to time. The busses won't matter because in 90%+ of the photos, they are close up where you don't see the bus.

 

[IgsEMT]

Thanks John. I said ten years based on some of the photos we DO still use from time to time. The busses won't matter because in 90%+ of the photos, they are close up where you don't see the bus.

I'm in the same ballpark maybe a bit more for shooting time.
Keep in mind though when you're hiring a pro to do the job, you aren't hiring for the camera, you're hiring for 3" behind the camera, for experience, for someone else to deal with headaches afterwords, liability and equipment insurance, etc etc. Taking pictures is fun, but working as a photographer is a professional responsibility whether you're charging $500 or $50000.

Good Luck.
Joe.

 

[tirediron]

... in 90%+ of the photos, they are close up where you don't see the bus.

Well that makes sense... D'ohhhh....

 

[sm4him]

Thanks John. I said ten years based on some of the photos we DO still use from time to time. The busses won't matter because in 90%+ of the photos, they are close up where you don't see the bus.

I'm in the same ballpark maybe a bit more for shooting time.
Keep in mind though when you're hiring a pro to do the job, you aren't hiring for the camera, you're hiring for 3" behind the camera, for experience, for someone else to deal with headaches afterwords, liability and equipment insurance, etc etc. Taking pictures is fun, but working as a photographer is a professional responsibility whether you're charging $500 or $50000.

Good Luck.
Joe.

Thank you, Joe. I appreciate the response! So you'd go a little higher on the per hour charge, but about the same on the licensing?

And yes, I am aware that generally speaking, if you need professional photos, you don't just need professional gear, you need a professional photographer, for all the reasons you mentioned. However, in this case, I've worked pretty hard over the past few years to be able to produce a reasonable quality of work, and I'm already insured. The only thing I lack is a business license and this is essentially a work-for-hire situation. I'm already employed by this company, and I've already been doing their photography for the past several years (with my OWN equipment, like a dummy).
The scenario I used as the example is one *I* shot last year. My "payment" for that shoot was to be a raise and a title change, AND the purchase of company camera equipment so that I'm no longer using my own gear for their shoots.

So that's why I need some figures, so that the GM has something to show the City people should anyone ever question us about why we are buying high-end camera gear (well, not THAT high-end; it's just a D7100, with a 24-70mm f/2.8 lens--but to them, it's high-end). Showing them just how expensive hiring an outside photographer is, and especially licensing photos, is what I'm after. Since I'm an employee already, they don't have to license the photos I take within the scope of work--they save a boatload over hiring someone outside, I get a raise and a title that may help me with finding work of this sort in the future, and I don't really CARE that the photos are theirs, because...well, they are pictures of buses, and people on buses. I *have* secured an agreement that, while copyright is theirs, I can include the ad photos in my portfolio as an example of my work.

The licensing cost is what is really going to help them justify making me their photographer and buying me equipment. They'll be "saving" thousands of $$$ just based on one ad shoot alone, never mind the routine things I shoot throughout the year.

 

[tirediron]

...he licensing cost is what is really going to help them justify making me their photographer and buying me equipment. They'll be "saving" thousands of $$$ just based on one ad shoot alone, never mind the routine things I shoot throughout the year.

Or... maybe see if they will sign off on renting high-end (and I mean HIGH-end) gear as required isntead of purchase. That way you will get a chance to play with all sorts of different toys. Think "Phase one" and "Profoto"!

 

[KmH]

$250/hr, door to door - to cover travel time, set up, and tear down.

A non-exclusive, limited to east Tennessee use license for 25 images as billboards on the side of 50 buses would be $2100 per photo, per year.
I would be happy to provide 25 photos for the business to choose from, but I would counsel licensing only those photos the business wants to use.
If the business still wanted to license all 25 photos I would do so, smile all the way to the bank, and start planning a nice vacation. 25 x $2100 = $52,500/year

The "we'd want the rights to use the images again for other promotional purposes over the following 10 years." is so broad a use definition that the user would have to pay WAY more than they would need to. It would save a lot of money to only license the usage wanted. Are you saying they want 20 total years of usage?

As an example, non-exclusive rights to use just 1 image in a brochure, at 1/4 page or spot use, with a 10,000 to 50,000 brochure print run, would be $500 per year. So x 25 = $12,500. per year.
If the brochure uses 4 different photos at 1/4 page or spot size that would be $2000 per year - $500 x 4 photos. - to have 10,000 to 50,000 brochures printed.

If in addition they wanted to print less than 10,000 coupons it would be an additional $600 per image for the additional use.

 

[CameraClicker]

The insides of our streetcars and buses have been the same for a long time. We have a lot of new subway cars which look different, inside and out, than the old ones. The general paint job has been the same forever. A bus might last 20 years with good maintenance.

Blue jeans and a T shirt seem to be an enduring fashion statement. Suits and dresses change yearly, so I have reservations about shots inside the bus being fresh in five years.

KmH's pricing sounds reasonable, but I live in a big market.

Thinking of another thread here, your use of the pictures is one that requires model releases.

 

[sm4him]

...he licensing cost is what is really going to help them justify making me their photographer and buying me equipment. They'll be "saving" thousands of $$$ just based on one ad shoot alone, never mind the routine things I shoot throughout the year.

Or... maybe see if they will sign off on renting high-end (and I mean HIGH-end) gear as required isntead of purchase. That way you will get a chance to play with all sorts of different toys. Think "Phase one" and "Profoto"!

Thanks again, John! At this point, that is a definite possibility. In fact, right now, things have taken a bit of a turn and it looks like we may just be getting a high-end bridge camera for day-to-day use and then revisit the DSLR purchase when we are ready to do another campaign. But renting higher-end equipment than what I'd be able to actually PURCHASE is a definite option, when the time comes! I'm a little disappointed that I'm not getting the DSLR now--but perhaps this could be the silver lining to that cloud…

 

[sm4him]

$250/hr, door to door - to cover travel time, set up, and tear down.

A non-exclusive, limited to east Tennessee use license for 25 images as billboards on the side of 50 buses would be $2100 per photo, per year.
I would be happy to provide 25 photos for the business to choose from, but I would counsel licensing only those photos the business wants to use.
If the business still wanted to license all 25 photos I would do so, smile all the way to the bank, and start planning a nice vacation. 25 x $2100 = $52,500/year

The "we'd want the rights to use the images again for other promotional purposes over the following 10 years." is so broad a use definition that the user would have to pay WAY more than they would need to. It would save a lot of money to only license the usage wanted. Are you saying they want 20 total years of usage?

As an example, non-exclusive rights to use just 1 image in a brochure, at 1/4 page or spot use, with a 10,000 to 50,000 brochure print run, would be $500 per year. So x 25 = $12,500. per year.
If the brochure uses 4 different photos at 1/4 page or spot size that would be $2000 per year - $500 x 4 photos. - to have 10,000 to 50,000 brochures printed.

If in addition they wanted to print less than 10,000 coupons it would be an additional $600 per image for the additional use.

Thanks for the response, Keith. I'm a little confused by where you got that I'm saying we'd want 20 years of usage--10 years was what I thought I said. But anyway--yeah, I've kind of purposely exaggerated the number of photos and amount of usage, but I've done so for a reason. Since I started taking pictures here a few years ago, and they suddenly discovered the advantage of actually have GOOD photos of buses, trolley, and other events--not to mention things like an ad shoot, they've kind of gotten away with being able to have a lot of pictures to choose from for any purpose whatsoever.
Since what the GM really wants is written "proof" that they would actually SAVE money by buying me a DSLR, I want to demonstrate to them just exactly what it would have cost them to have the unlimited access to the many, many photos I've provided over the past few years.
Yes, if we hired an outside professional, we'd probably select the 8 or 10 shots we actually intend to use--but that's not what they've been getting, and I want them to SEE the value of what they've been getting.

(Hope this works better this time. Last time I tried to respond to this, I suddenly got a "Bad Gateway" error message and haven't been able to access TPF again since then, several hours ago, on either computer at work. Glad it's back up, because I was starting to feel like I'd broken TPF&#8230

 

[sm4him]

The insides of our streetcars and buses have been the same for a long time. We have a lot of new subway cars which look different, inside and out, than the old ones. The general paint job has been the same forever. A bus might last 20 years with good maintenance.

Blue jeans and a T shirt seem to be an enduring fashion statement. Suits and dresses change yearly, so I have reservations about shots inside the bus being fresh in five years.

KmH's pricing sounds reasonable, but I live in a big market.

Thinking of another thread here, your use of the pictures is one that requires model releases.

Thanks, CameraClicker. Yeah, buses stay in the fleet for a substantial number of years--we've recently (in the past 3 or 4 years) replaced the majority of our fleet, so many of our current buses will be on the streets for many years to come.
And yes, some of the fashions from the actual photo shoot would be out of date in five years, but I'm still going with a 10-year span of photo use, on the basis that I know for a fact we have USED photos that old before. Not for an Ad campaign, certainly, but for other uses--FB cover photos, website images, maybe a trade magazine article. We are public transit--we don't care much about no dated fashions. :lmao:

Yes, when I actually DID this photo shoot last year, we obtained model releases, but that seems neither here nor there in the financial formula for my purposes.
We actually selected our "models" as a contest--they sent cell phone pics of themselves on the bus, we selected the ones we wanted to use in the actual shoot, and they received compensation in the form of bus passes; I think they actually each got a full year's worth of monthly passes. Since they were all actual bus passengers, that was a decent incentive. To get the passes, they had to show up for the shoot, AND sign the release.

 

[tirediron]

...I was starting to feel like I'd broken TPF&#8230

You did!













:greenpbl:

 

[KmH]

$250/hr, door to door - to cover travel time, set up, and tear down.

A non-exclusive, limited to east Tennessee use license for 25 images as billboards on the side of 50 buses would be $2100 per photo, per year.
I would be happy to provide 25 photos for the business to choose from, but I would counsel licensing only those photos the business wants to use.
If the business still wanted to license all 25 photos I would do so, smile all the way to the bank, and start planning a nice vacation. 25 x $2100 = $52,500/year

The "we'd want the rights to use the images again for other promotional purposes over the following 10 years." is so broad a use definition that the user would have to pay WAY more than they would need to. It would save a lot of money to only license the usage wanted. Are you saying they want 20 total years of usage?

As an example, non-exclusive rights to use just 1 image in a brochure, at 1/4 page or spot use, with a 10,000 to 50,000 brochure print run, would be $500 per year. So x 25 = $12,500. per year.
If the brochure uses 4 different photos at 1/4 page or spot size that would be $2000 per year - $500 x 4 photos. - to have 10,000 to 50,000 brochures printed.

If in addition they wanted to print less than 10,000 coupons it would be an additional $600 per image for the additional use.

Thanks for the response, Keith. I'm a little confused by where you got that I'm saying we'd want 20 years of usage--10 years was what I thought I said. But anyway--yeah, I've kind of purposely exaggerated the number of photos and amount of usage, but I've done so for a reason. Since I started taking pictures here a few years ago, and they suddenly discovered the advantage of actually have GOOD photos of buses, trolley, and other events--not to mention things like an ad shoot, they've kind of gotten away with being able to have a lot of pictures to choose from for any purpose whatsoever.
Since what the GM really wants is written "proof" that they would actually SAVE money by buying me a DSLR, I want to demonstrate to them just exactly what it would have cost them to have the unlimited access to the many, many photos I've provided over the past few years.
Yes, if we hired an outside professional, we'd probably select the 8 or 10 shots we actually intend to use--but that's not what they've been getting, and I want them to SEE the value of what they've been getting.

(Hope this works better this time. Last time I tried to respond to this, I suddenly got a "Bad Gateway" error message and haven't been able to access TPF again since then, several hours ago, on either computer at work. Glad it's back up, because I was starting to feel like I'd broken TPF&#8230

"the images again for other promotional purposes over the following 10 years.

 

[sm4him]

$250/hr, door to door - to cover travel time, set up, and tear down.

A non-exclusive, limited to east Tennessee use license for 25 images as billboards on the side of 50 buses would be $2100 per photo, per year.
I would be happy to provide 25 photos for the business to choose from, but I would counsel licensing only those photos the business wants to use.
If the business still wanted to license all 25 photos I would do so, smile all the way to the bank, and start planning a nice vacation. 25 x $2100 = $52,500/year

The "we'd want the rights to use the images again for other promotional purposes over the following 10 years." is so broad a use definition that the user would have to pay WAY more than they would need to. It would save a lot of money to only license the usage wanted. Are you saying they want 20 total years of usage?

As an example, non-exclusive rights to use just 1 image in a brochure, at 1/4 page or spot use, with a 10,000 to 50,000 brochure print run, would be $500 per year. So x 25 = $12,500. per year.
If the brochure uses 4 different photos at 1/4 page or spot size that would be $2000 per year - $500 x 4 photos. - to have 10,000 to 50,000 brochures printed.

If in addition they wanted to print less than 10,000 coupons it would be an additional $600 per image for the additional use.

Thanks for the response, Keith. I'm a little confused by where you got that I'm saying we'd want 20 years of usage--10 years was what I thought I said. But anyway--yeah, I've kind of purposely exaggerated the number of photos and amount of usage, but I've done so for a reason. Since I started taking pictures here a few years ago, and they suddenly discovered the advantage of actually have GOOD photos of buses, trolley, and other events--not to mention things like an ad shoot, they've kind of gotten away with being able to have a lot of pictures to choose from for any purpose whatsoever.
Since what the GM really wants is written "proof" that they would actually SAVE money by buying me a DSLR, I want to demonstrate to them just exactly what it would have cost them to have the unlimited access to the many, many photos I've provided over the past few years.
Yes, if we hired an outside professional, we'd probably select the 8 or 10 shots we actually intend to use--but that's not what they've been getting, and I want them to SEE the value of what they've been getting.

(Hope this works better this time. Last time I tried to respond to this, I suddenly got a "Bad Gateway" error message and haven't been able to access TPF again since then, several hours ago, on either computer at work. Glad it's back up, because I was starting to feel like I'd broken TPF&#8230

"the images again for other promotional purposes over the following 10 years.

Ah yes, okay. What I *meant* was over a period of ten years, total, including whatever time the initial ad would run--although I don't think most places run ads for 10 years in the first place, so I still don't think that could really be read as a total of 20 years... ;-)