Printer - Big Decision

[kevinbiestra]

Thanks for the information...

And for not looking at me like I am trying to build a time machine in my garage instead of just print a really big book.

The thing is, I am not trying to get into the book production business. I am a graphic design guy.

I have already designed all 1000+ pages of this one book and now I just want to get a copy or two made as gifts for close family members. MAYBE five copies if it doesn't mean selling my kidneys.

I don't really have any other content to make a small book out of. The only thing I could do is break off a piece of this huge book into a small book as a test run... But I feel like my head is taking on more than it can handle just trying to figure out how to print the pages. If I start trying to digest what would be involved in doing my own binding, I will probably get an aneurysm.

Also, while I would consider doing a smaller test run at home, that brings me back to my original first step in this thread of buying the right printer... From what I've heard in this thread, any home printer will pretty much result in immediate failure of the project by having the pages fade within a few years.

Although, I am researching those matters lightly in trying to make sure the grain of the paper is properly oriented when printing happens...

And you are correct. I have NO experience with any of the matters I'm asking about. I have just put hundreds and hundreds of hours into the design of the book and pages and I still find it amazing that getting the pages printed and bound could be the most difficult part of the process.

 

[kevinbiestra]

Actually, as a quick follow up, I did (a couple years ago) design a book of about 160 pages (80 pieces of paper) and the pages were card stock (quite thick) and 8x10.

Both sides of each page were printed in color with lots of photos / images.

I had it hardcover bound and the whole thing wasn't really a big deal. An office supply chain handled it and it came out quite well and wasn't a whole lot more than an inch thick. Which is probably one of the reasons I figured this new project wouldn't be so impossible.

I don't know anything about the archival longevity of the ink used in that smaller project, so I can't guarantee it won't fade in 6 years...but it was "professionally printed" and the whole thing cost maybe $120 at the most.

The binding wasn't stitched. Just "perfect" binding, and the cover was fine for that project but I do want to step it up for the current one... Whether I somehow succeed in printing a 1000 page book or break it into volumes or whatever.

 

[Helen B]

Paper manufacturers, like Red River, may offer double-sided paper in grain short and grain long.

There are two main sources for information on predicted life of ink/paper and other print combinations: Wilhelm and Aardenburg. Inkjet prints can have very long predicted lives, particularly kept in the dark, such as in a book.

Ink costs are likely to be substantial if you decide to print the books yourself - though the quality can be significantly higher than web offset or typical PoD laser prints. Choose your printer carefully for that reason - you could consider refillable cartridges or a continuous ink supply. With some Epson printers you can use high capacity cartridges (from large format Epson printers) as a source of relatively cheap bulk ink.

 

[unpopular]

I hope you have this already imposed if you're planning to DIY...

 

[kevinbiestra]

Paper manufacturers, like Red River, may offer double-sided paper in grain short and grain long.

There are two main sources for information on predicted life of ink/paper and other print combinations: Wilhelm and Aardenburg. Inkjet prints can have very long predicted lives, particularly kept in the dark, such as in a book.

Ink costs are likely to be substantial if you decide to print the books yourself - though the quality can be significantly higher than web offset or typical PoD laser prints. Choose your printer carefully for that reason - you could consider refillable cartridges or a continuous ink supply. With some Epson printers you can use high capacity cartridges (from large format Epson printers) as a source of relatively cheap bulk ink.

Thanks for the links. I had come across Wilhelm but not Aardenburg.

The whole Wilhelm thing was confusing me since for every piece of information on Wilhelm tests, there seems to be three people that have run some sort of home experiment to discredit his data as not including ozone, or this or that...

And given that I enter this field from square one...it's been a slow process to tease all these things apart...

Anyway, I will take a closer look at the two.

It would be great if there was some consumer site that actually listed all the printers available for purchase and what their cost-per-page is for printing / refills etc.

 

[kevinbiestra]

Just seeing if anyone might have any new info...I got pulled away from the project temporarily but it is nearing printing time and I think that all things equal, I would probably rather invest in my own printer if it can do the job I need...

 

[Richb1888]

Hi,

To produce this book professionally on a LITHO OFFSET machine will be very expensive..... These presses cost well in excess of $1million to buy. You could go to a digital printer and ask them to output 1 spread to let you see the quality? If it is sufficient then DIGITAL printing will definitely be cheaper. If the job will be perfect bound then remember to include a gutter.... There is another option called burst binding where no gutters are required and the finish is the same as if it were perfect bound.

Your digital printer should be able to print this job as 4pp sections and supply them to you folded. You can then take the folded sections to a binders if they are unable to do that for you. 3500 seems like a true price for high quality litho printing. I think digital printing will be sufficient for your needs tho given what you are willing to spend.

Hope that helps a little.....?

Rich

 

[kevinbiestra]

Thanks Rich. This info is helpful and some of the terms are new to me...more research, but I much prefer guided research to what would otherwise be a wasteful shotgun approach.

I redesigned everything to allow for gutters but this gutterless possibility is nice to be aware of and would probably be preferable.

I kind of wish someone could recommend their opinion of the best consumer printer for the job so I could run a few pages off that puppy and then determine whether that is an option...

And then there is still the whole ink / paper combo for print permanence... Ay yay yay...

 

[JonathanNYC]

if you print it yourself, do you care that it will look like a screen play? I doubt you could print it to the "professional grade" style including cover, jacket, binding and the like for $3500.00 not to mention getting it to look like something professionaly done.

printers make money by setting up the print press and the like, not for the amount of work it has to churn out. so i bet if you ordered more copies, the cost per unit would go down considerably.

 

[kevinbiestra]

if you print it yourself, do you care that it will look like a screen play? I doubt you could print it to the "professional grade" style including cover, jacket, binding and the like for $3500.00 not to mention getting it to look like something professionaly done.

printers make money by setting up the print press and the like, not for the amount of work it has to churn out. so i bet if you ordered more copies, the cost per unit would go down considerably.

Hi Jonathan,

Yes, I absolutely don't want this to look like a bound screenplay. This project is enormously visual.

When I started this whole research process I was surprised to learn that consumer inkjets apparently have better image quality than consumer color laser. And then further online research spoke glowingly of the resolution quality of today's inkjets...practically professional litho...

But I am hearing here that...apparently not...I have to go professional...

My technical issues just boil down to:

1. High color photo reproduction
2. Getting the grain of the paper right
3. Having an ink with high color permanence
4. Having a paper that allows the ink to have high color permanence
5. Affordable - but this is secondary to having these other four conditions met.

I am constrained by a couple other conditions:

1. There are a lot of family photos, etc mixed into the project and I am hesitant to just hand over a huge stick of data to a random printer. That is one of my reasons for trying to DIY with the printing...but again, I will hand it over to the pros if absolutely necessary.

2. I am willing to break the project into, say, three or four volumes...if there is a way of encasing them as a single unit... Either making three or four books and binding the books together somehow (?) or having, say, a leather box that the individual volumes fit into to keep them together...

I know my questions seem to never end...but this was an enormous project from the artistic end and I just never expected the technical side of printing to be this overwhelming. I am gaining respect for the experts in the printing business, but still want to learn enough about how to execute my options to do as much as possible myself with good results.

 

[JonathanNYC]

Hi Jonathan,

Yes, I absolutely don't want this to look like a bound screenplay. This project is enormously visual.

When I started this whole research process I was surprised to learn that consumer inkjets apparently have better image quality than consumer color laser. And then further online research spoke glowingly of the resolution quality of today's inkjets...practically professional litho...

But I am hearing here that...apparently not...I have to go professional...

My technical issues just boil down to:

1. High color photo reproduction
I would look into how people print these out themselves, finding the right paper and possibly looking into someone who can bind the pages together like a professional book maker, so that you can bring the printed pages to him and he can create the book
2. Getting the grain of the paper right
I would look online or ask a print shop what kind of paper they use (one that makes books) research online.
3. Having an ink with high color permanence
I would even think that a color laser printer is a good idea to print with. or get an inkjet that has colorsafe/water resistant printing capabilities.
4. Having a paper that allows the ink to have high color permanence
Lasercolor jet?
5. Affordable - but this is secondary to having these other four conditions met.
Good luck with that one!

I am constrained by a couple other conditions:

1. There are a lot of family photos, etc mixed into the project and I am hesitant to just hand over a huge stick of data to a random printer. That is one of my reasons for trying to DIY with the printing...but again, I will hand it over to the pros if absolutely necessary.

2. I am willing to break the project into, say, three or four volumes...if there is a way of encasing them as a single unit... Either making three or four books and binding the books together somehow (?) or having, say, a leather box that the individual volumes fit into to keep them together...

I know my questions seem to never end...but this was an enormous project from the artistic end and I just never expected the technical side of printing to be this overwhelming. I am gaining respect for the experts in the printing business, but still want to learn enough about how to execute my options to do as much as possible myself with good results.

I just typed out a crazy long reply only to have the whole thing get deleted b/c i hit reply to thread instead of post quick reply... GRRR...

try a local book binder/print shop, ask them if you print out material can they hard cover bind it.

 

[JonathanNYC]

Long's-Roullet Bookbinders, Inc. - Pricing

This is pretty cool

BOOKBINDING 101
	Please note that the steps shown below generally describe the binding process but will not apply to each book that we bind/rebind. Books are reviewed on an individual basis, and the process that is most appropriate to ensure a durable, attractive binding will be done. When you bring in your book, you will be asked to choose the cover material and color, as well as the stamping color. When you book is processed for binding, it will be assigned a unique alpha-numeric code that distinguishes it from the other books in the bindery. This code, along with your name and binding instructions, is recorded in duplicate on a binding slip. One copy stays with your book; the other is maintained in the office. The condition of the book's cover and original sewing are examined. If the original sewing is strong and the cover is in good shape, the book will be recased. (The steps shown below are most typical of a binding order where several issues of a magazine were being bound together.) The Binding Process If recasing is not an option, the original cover is removed, and the spine is put through the milling machine to remove any glue and expose clean paper fibers. The newly-exposed edge that resulted from milling is then notched. The depth of the notch is adjusted depending on the weight and size of the text block, as well as the binding margin (space between the spine and left margin). Endsheets are placed at the front and back of your book. The alpha-numeric code from the binding slip is noted on the top end paper. The Double Fan Adhesive method is used to adhere the pages together. Flannel is applied to the spine to hold the pages together, and the book is left to dry overnight. If the ends of the pages of your book are uneven, dirty, or worn, the edges will be trimmed to give your book a clean, even finish. Next, the spine and cover boards for your book are individually cut to size. The boards are marked with the book's unique alpha-numeric code to ensure they will be matched later to the text block, whose end sheets have the same alpha-numeric code. Standard stamping is done on a computerized machine. Files of the imprint information are created, the correct size cloth is chosen, and the cover is imprinted. Any hand imprinting or special imprinting (i.e. panel lines, decorative imprints) are done after the cover has been assembled. Next, the cover is assembled. The cloth is passed through a hot glue machine, and the cover boards, spine board, and cord reinforcement for the spine (if needed) are applied. A special machine is used to fold under the excess fabric and create square corners. At this time, any special stamping is done. A manual stamping machine where the type must be individually handset is used. While it is more labor intensive than the automated imprinter, it provides a greater variety of layout options. Die casts are made and used upon request. Now, your book is cased in, meaning the glued text block is adhered to the cover (case) that was created for it. Cased in books are given about 10 minutes for the glue to cure, at which point the book is ready to be pressed. The hydraulic press uses pressure to force any air bubbles out of the space between the cover and the endsheet, making for a firm adhesion. The press also has a component that creates the shoulder on the cover (the attractive groove between where the spine and boards meet up). The press can be regulated in regard to force used and length of time that the book is pressed. These adjustments are made depending on the thickness of the book as well as the quality of paper used. Finally, your book is inspected for strength of the text block, correct construction of the case, and correct imprinting of the titling information.

 

[kevinbiestra]

Thanks again for the additional info.

When this is all said and done, I should be able to write a book about bookbinding...that will be cost-prohibitive to print of course.

 

[newfangled]

It could be that one of the better photobook companies could meet your needs. These new guys at MILK Tailor Made Books - Award-winning publisher seeks photographers have a track record with publishing top pros (Albert Watson, Platon and others) so might be interesting now they are looking for test photographers. I would look at the deal and see if it can be adapted. There's also blurb and a few others who say they have quality. Way cheaper than working direct with a printer.

 

[gsgary]

But I am no expert in printers at all. Given all these pages, I need to ensure:
1. low cost per page (color and images)
2. image quality is important

These are going to be hard to find together........

Are you looking for fine art quality images or just inkjet quality.....
Can you plan your layout to minimize the number of photo pages...

Or are you rich?

I am not rich.

By low cost per page, I don't mean it has to be 2 cents. I am just going to be printing thousands of pages. Print shops want to charge about $1 per two-sided color page for the printing alone. I was figuring that by investing the capital of the printer, the variable costs (printing pages) would drop by more than enough to justify buying the printer.

But I defer to the expertise of others.

The number of photo pages is fixed.

It doesn't have to be "fine art" quality. But it can't look like a crappy old home printer. I'd like to shoot for magazine quality or something close.

You have no chance of printing that cheap at home