Ranting

[lordfly]

To some on the forum, pro means spending 40k on equipment and owning a studio.

To me, "pro" means you are making your primary income from it. Everything else is just beer money/hobby/amateur. But what do I know, I shoot for beer money...

 

[tnvol]

This topic can and will be argued to death but I would think that most people equate the word "professional" with high quality or a high level of skill. I'm in no way busting balls on anyone here getting payed for their pictures, I'm just saying that you can split hairs on this all day long with definitions and such, but most people expect a higher standard of work when they pay a professional for a service. I know I do and I wouldn't think many here would be any different. If someone is getting paid for a skill and that skill sucks, they are in no way a professional in my opinion.

 

[Aayria]

Ok.. not to fuel the fire of a thread I'm sure will take forever to die...

But here's a question:

Can a person be highly skilled, present themselves and their work with professionalism, but provide their services for free and still be considered a professional?

 

[lordfly]

This topic can and will be argued to death but I would think that most people equate the word "professional" with high quality or a high level of skill. I'm in no way busting balls on anyone here getting payed for their pictures, I'm just saying that you can split hairs on this all day long with definitions and such, but most people expect a higher standard of work when they pay a professional for a service. I know I do and I wouldn't think many here would be any different. If someone is getting paid for a skill and that skill sucks, they are in no way a professional in my opinion.

Yes, but if you're upfront about the quality and your skill level ahead of time, what's the dividing line? What's "proper" for a person to pay for?

You can spend $1.99 for drinking glasses at Walmart, for $4499 for fine crystal hand-made by Japanese Spirit Ninja Monks or whatever. Some people are willing to pay for top-notch quality, and others are willing to pay less because, hey, maybe they're broke and can't afford 5 grand for a "professional" to do their thing, or maybe they can't actually tell the difference (how often do you hear people lamenting in the modern art section of your local museum about how their child can do modern art?).

 

[mishele]

What isn't this the order that everyone does things in........buy DSLR and then book a wedding? I thought that is what everyone does........lol

 

[Buckster]

I've been shooting for about 40 years. I've been shooting SLRs for over 30 of those years, and DSLRs for about 10 years. I've studied and practiced all kinds of different styles, genres, lighting, and so forth, bought and studies and learned from untold thousands of dollars worth of books and videos and courses and gear (most of which I still have) - and I still do all of that all the time; study, practice, buy stuff and shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot, sssssshooooooot - because I LOVE IT.

I make a little money with it here and there, by accident and word of mouth. Got a couple of e-stores online that people stumble into on occasion and get a few to several sales through them each month, get contacted by folks who see my stuff on various photo sites like Flickr and Panoramio that want to purchase rights to use my photos as stock for advertising and so on from time to time, get hired to do a portrait once in a while, etc. But I don't advertise, I don't promote myself, I don't seek out photo jobs or opportunities for pay. I don't much care about that side of it at all, to be honest.

Why? Because I'm not a pro, plain and simple. I'm a photography enthusiast, a hobbyist, I'm in it for the pure enjoyment I get out of it; To have fun with it, nothing more, nothing less. No matter how good someone else thinks my stuff is, no matter how confident I feel about my abilities, no matter how competent I usually am with camera gear, no matter how much money I make on the side with it - I am not a professional photographer. I don't depend on it to pay my bills (and that's a good thing because I don't make enough with it to even pay for the gear I keep buying! LOL!).

And that's all okay with me.

So, just to set the record straight, not EVERYONE who gets a decent camera thinks they're a pro in a few months.

 

[tnvol]

This topic can and will be argued to death but I would think that most people equate the word "professional" with high quality or a high level of skill. I'm in no way busting balls on anyone here getting payed for their pictures, I'm just saying that you can split hairs on this all day long with definitions and such, but most people expect a higher standard of work when they pay a professional for a service. I know I do and I wouldn't think many here would be any different. If someone is getting paid for a skill and that skill sucks, they are in no way a professional in my opinion.

Yes, but if you're upfront about the quality and your skill level ahead of time, what's the dividing line? What's "proper" for a person to pay for?

You can spend $1.99 for drinking glasses at Walmart, for $4499 for fine crystal hand-made by Japanese Spirit Ninja Monks or whatever. Some people are willing to pay for top-notch quality, and others are willing to pay less because, hey, maybe they're broke and can't afford 5 grand for a "professional" to do their thing, or maybe they can't actually tell the difference (how often do you hear people lamenting in the modern art section of your local museum about how their child can do modern art?).

I have no clue dude. I have never sold my work. That isn't my motivation in photography. I'm not saying that your work has to be worthy of the cover of National Geographic for you to be able to sell it. I'm just saying that it should be damn good before you should be able to call yourself a pro. You can certainly be an amateur photographer that sells pictures. I'm not saying that shouldn't happen. I'm just saying that I reserve the word "professional" for work of a higher standard.

 

[lordfly]

I'm not going after you specifically, just quoting the message that got me thinking. I do that a lot.

I would like to stay in "amateur who makes beer money" territory for a long time.

 

[white]

Can a person be highly skilled, present themselves and their work with professionalism, but provide their services for free and still be considered a professional?

No. Those people are insane.

 

[Aayria]

Can a person be highly skilled, present themselves and their work with professionalism, but provide their services for free and still be considered a professional?

No. Those people are insane.

:lmao:

 

[misstwinklytoes]

This thread reminds me that there's a handful of people that post regularly that make me want to just stay away from this place. Not everyone who gets a camera thinks there pro... actually there is probably more people here assuming they're trying to go pro than there are people actually claiming to be pro. :er: All of you out there assuming everyone asking for C&C and putting a watermark on their photograph are trying to be something they're not should really take a step back and chill. Even if there's people out there charging for photographs that aren't F*cking awesome, they're getting paid regardless. If their clients are happy who are you to say otherwise? *shrug*


I think I'll go try to find a thread where the handful of people who generally offer good advice have posted.

[Please note this post was not directed at anyone specifically, but if it pisses you off it probably applies.]

 

[Mustlovedragons]

These kind of threads make me cringe.

I've apparently recently crossed the "friends think my pictures are cool" threshold, and recently I've been getting deluged with friends (and friends of friends, and sisters of friends) asking me to take engagement/kids/wedding/car/etc. pictures. They'll ask me what my "rate" is. I say "free". They say "that's ridiculous!" and insist on giving me money anyway after the shoot.

Is that bad? I don't know. I tell them up front I'm learning, and I hardly consider myself a professional, barely a student in fact, but they don't seem to listen. They just see what I dump on facebook and think I'm some sort of tiny photo god.

Seeing as I'm broke as hell, though, it is very, very hard to turn down cash repeatedly. I think if you're up front about your ability (and realize that what you think is awesome really isn't), it isn't too bad. If you tout yourself as God's gift to photography, though, well, hubris is fun to shoot down.

YOU SUCK!!! I have just the opposite problem. I have the friends and family who do the "hey, you're a photographer, right? I need...blah". Ok, so I do "blah" and it takes me 30 min to get there, 30 min to set it all up, 30 or more to shoot, then reverse to home and process for size, etc. What do I get out of it when I rush to get it done in 10-24 hours? "Wow, thanks. These are awesome"....and that's about it. Hell, sometimes I don't even get that! (sigh)

After last Thursday's shoot, I told my husband that next time any friend or family member asks me I'm going to say that my camera is broken. I mean it.

 

[lordfly]

These kind of threads make me cringe.

I've apparently recently crossed the "friends think my pictures are cool" threshold, and recently I've been getting deluged with friends (and friends of friends, and sisters of friends) asking me to take engagement/kids/wedding/car/etc. pictures. They'll ask me what my "rate" is. I say "free". They say "that's ridiculous!" and insist on giving me money anyway after the shoot.

Is that bad? I don't know. I tell them up front I'm learning, and I hardly consider myself a professional, barely a student in fact, but they don't seem to listen. They just see what I dump on facebook and think I'm some sort of tiny photo god.

Seeing as I'm broke as hell, though, it is very, very hard to turn down cash repeatedly. I think if you're up front about your ability (and realize that what you think is awesome really isn't), it isn't too bad. If you tout yourself as God's gift to photography, though, well, hubris is fun to shoot down.

YOU SUCK!!! I have just the opposite problem. I have the friends and family who do the "hey, you're a photographer, right? I need...blah". Ok, so I do "blah" and it takes me 30 min to get there, 30 min to set it all up, 30 or more to shoot, then reverse to home and process for size, etc. What do I get out of it when I rush to get it done in 10-24 hours? "Wow, thanks. These are awesome"....and that's about it. Hell, sometimes I don't even get that! (sigh)

After last Thursday's shoot, I told my husband that next time any friend or family member asks me I'm going to say that my camera is broken. I mean it.

I'm happy to do it for free because it's experience. I can only take pictures of my sleeping cats and my local downtown so many times before I run out of interesting angles. Being put in slightly uncomfortable situations with a camera is a great learning tool; you have to learn and improvise quickly.

I know the pictures I have on flickr now are going to make me cringe a year or two down the road. Happens to me all the time. But they look good to me now, as best as I can make them with the skills and equipment I have.

Be happy to do it for free, imo. If it turns into a chore, something's wrong.

 

[white]

I know a guy who is a whore for nikon products and makes abysmally crappy photos, but he calls himself a pro and people pay for his services and I think it is a beautiful thing. I seriously do. He has confidence, and makes more money at photography than I do, and has a nice sparkly d3s.

I'm inclined to believe the sooner you think of yourself as a pro or an artist, and work toward that ideal, the sooner you become a pro/artist.

You have to have thick skin. Some people will not like your work. Big deal. Consider yourself a pro and make money.

(This post isn't directed at anyone specifically, but it actually is, I just don't like conflict.)

 

[Taylor510ce]

Sports, pretty clear example that the paid sports pros are "extremely skilled".

Like I said, thats because in many cases that is the case, however that is not ALWAYS the case. Look at Matt Leinart. Sam Bradford was a better quarterback in College than Leinart was in the NFL, yet Bradford wasn't a Pro, no matter how good he was. But we could argue all day long about it. Its just like the Snapshot vs photo argument. There is the definition of a snapshot, and then there are the people that take it to mean an insult on their pictures. You can make anything mean whatever you want. I am merely saying that the textbook definition is as stated.

Why do you think Arena football is still considered professional? Those guys aren't as good as the guys in the NFL, but they are still pros, because they are playing for money. I bet you when Mike Tyson was fighting amatuer fights, he was better than half the boxers that were pros, but he still wasn't considered a pro fighter until his first prize fight. We can twist it into whatever we want and try to justify it, but that is not the facts. :mrgreen: