When does taking pictures for free cross the line?

[Goontz]

Wow. What a lowlife. It's a shame that he holds a position of power.

 

[Ryan6]

"When does taking pictures for free cross the line?"
It is quite the simple question, at least from my point of view.

Pretty much only 2 circumstances:
1. When someone else is making money off of your work.
2. When YOU are hurting the industry by not charging enough or at all.

Now this assumes that you are good enough to be charging for your work in the first place.

As far as when to start charging, that is IMPOSSIBLE to say just like that... this is answered on a case by case situation.

I started charging when I felt I was good enough. I decided when I was good enough because I set my own standards and compared my results to others in my chosen field. I then worked my a$$ off so that my work matched or exceeded them and am now charging for my work.

All in all, a simple but effective way of thinking about it.

Yep, I share the same sentiments as the above poster. Great post.

 

[BKMOOD]

Is shooting for free hurting the business? I don't think so. There's a "free guy" in every industry (photo, auto, carpentry, plumbing -- you name it). He's been there since day one and throughout history. He be there until the end.

I actually don’t mind the free guy, nor am I angry at him. When I was gaining experience, paying my dues and building a portfolio, I did a lot of free stuff. Down the road, the people I shot for at no charge began to pay me because I had proven myself. For me shooting for free was great PR, seeds that paid off later -- literally.

If anything is shrinking the photography employment pool, it's technology. 25 years ago, you really needed a pro to get a clear, sharp, well-exposed image. Not any more!

Automated point and shoots (and consumer level DSLRs) are delivering such high quality, idiot proof images that people are foregoing hiring us because the images they are getting (no matter who is behind the camera) are good enough for them. And if they can save a few hundred bucks in the process, especially in today’s economy, can you blame them?

Case point #1: I was in a photo store buying a lens. Next to me was a mother buying a DSLR. She had spread several pictures of her daughter's basketball game all over the counter while complaining that the photographer was charging the parents way too much for prints. Her solution: buy her own camera and shoot her own pictures. The technology brought doing it herself within her reach. Now I suppose her decision may take food out of the mouth of the photographer (and his crying kids), but so what. His kids is not her concern.

Case point #2: 25 years ago I ran a small printing and graphics company. We did quite well – until consumer level graphic programs arrived. Suddenly, people didn’t need us to design their business cards, invitations and letterheads anymore. They did it themselves. Sure, the results looked like crap (to us pros anyway) – but (and pay close attention here) it was good enough for them! They saved money and we eventually went out of business. Microsoft – those bastards! I should’ve written a letter to Gates about how my kids were cryng and stuff.

I believe that’s exactly what’s going on in the photography business. It’s not the free guy that’s shrinking the pool – it’s technology, it’s progress, it’s the natural shift of an industry. It happens in every industry. Welcome to capitalism!

 

[Actor]

When should you stop doing things for free?

Whenever you get sick of doing it for free and want to make some money at it.

To be honest (and this is probably the wrong place to say this), how I impact a photographer by doing something I really enjoy doesn't come into play with my decision.

Sorry...

Same as my ability to do some work on vehicles, I enjoy that as well and have helped quite a few people for free - did the thought of a starving mechanic ever cross my mind?

Not once.

My wife and I cook our own meals every night for each other and our kids, and up until this point I really can't say I've ever felt like I was taking business away from any chefs

I agree 100% !

Chalk me up as one of those S.O.B.s who has taken business away from auto mechanics, motorcycle mechanics, plumbers, electricians, roofers, cab drivers, tax form preparers, Southern California farmers (I have my own veggie garden), brewers and moonshiners (I make my own booze. Yes, it's legal), writers (I can check out the latest Tom Clancy at the library). And I guess I should include lab technicians since I'm setting up my own darkroom.

Get over it. The world does not owe you a living. If you are going into business there's going to be competition, not only from your fellow professionals but from the hobbyist who is only too glad to do it for free because he loves it. If you want to charge for something that can be had for free then you need to deliver something that the freebie can't. Tell me in 20 words or less exactly what that is. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

As for the young lady who's upset because 90% of her calls are from people who don't buy, you have to play percentages. A 10% hit rate sounds pretty good to me. Try selling used cars. I doubt if as many as 1 in 20 tire kickers has any intention of buying the tire they're kicking. About half of them are just window shopping and the others will buy from someone besides you.

 

[usayit]

Get over it. The world does not owe you a living. If you are going into business there's going to be competition, not only from your fellow professionals but from the hobbyist who is only too glad to do it for free because he loves it. If you want to charge for something that can be had for free then you need to deliver something that the freebie can't. Tell me

:thumbup: As I said, it is really lame for a professional to blame slow business on the amateur.

 

[PhotoXopher]

I will always take pictures for free.

Always.

Well, at least until someone wants to pay me.

 

[Antithesis]

I don't think its necessarily the people that aren't charging at all that are damaging the industry. I think its the people who undercut everyone else, therefore making the whole thing seem cheaper than it is. Charging $300 to shoot a wedding is what's causing issues... Not only are they making it seem like a cheap endeavor, but their work usually blows and they are only undercutting themselves if it doesn't.

Oh, just read BKMOODs post, and that's actually pretty profound. Technology is one of the key reasons I've cited for the changing photography industry, and my decision to strongly consider another career. I will keep my eyes open for work in the industry and will keep all my old contacts, but at the same time, its good to have a backup plan in this industry. The freelance photographer is going extinct.

 

[bp4life71]

I'm with JerryPH on this one. I am SICK AND TIRED of getting 10 inquiries in one day, and only 1 of them booking because they don't understand why I don't give away the CD of images with my session fee.

*sigh*

This has gotten worse this year... and personally, I am sick of it.

One local has it up on her website that she gives away the CD and everything for $200 AND she has a part on her website telling the viewers that these images belong to THEM, not her, so she won't hold them hostage for a high price. WTH?!!!!! I am dying to ask her what she plans to do if something happens to her spouse one day and she has to support her family on her less than minimum wage.

Your assuming that photography is her means of wage. It may be her second job, or shall I say, her hobby. She might have another career, and this is just a side job.

For me, and I'm just getting into photograhy, my first career pays the bills...photography is just a hobby....and if I can make some spare change on the weekends, I'll charge significantly less than someone who does it for a living.

I believe it ridiculously for me to say to myself, "Man, I should charge more so that we can keep the rates high so the photographer down the road can make a living"....etc.

Thats my 2 cents....and thats probably all its worth.

 

[bp4life71]

One local has it up on her website that she gives away the CD and everything for $200 AND she has a part on her website telling the viewers that these images belong to THEM, not her, so she won't hold them hostage for a high price. WTH?!!!!! I am dying to ask her what she plans to do if something happens to her spouse one day and she has to support her family on her less than minimum wage.

If she really does have a spouse to support her, it may last a while. If she doesn't she won't be in business long.

And the spouse could get tired of money going out the door...

In the meantime, while she is in biz like that, the damage she is doing to some local photog's client base will be irreversible. For instance, a friend of mine locally, has a client who is badmouthing her all over the place because she won't give away her CD for $200. I feel terrible that she is dealing with this - the client has been to the other photog, and is angry that she won't give him the same price.

One day, Ms. $200 CD will be out of business, and yet we still plug along, having her previous, now angry clients because we won't give away our work.

Jodie.....I understand what your saying...but this is business sweetheart. You just need to make sure you are THAT MUCH better than the other photographer, and you will get your business. Trust me, if you are, you will get the business.

Example:

My wife own's a very large daycare center (100+ kids) and charges 170.00 a week per child, the home daycares in the area charge 80-100 per week. Guess who has the waiting list about 400 long? My wife. She doesnt try to compete with the house sitters, she offers so much more with education, environment, qualified staff etc. The parents see this and are willing to pay the higher cost due to the product being put out.

This can carry over for you, if you are that much better, it shouldnt matter what photographer B is doing down the street.

This is business Jodie, I would not blame the photographer down the street. If thats the case, shouldn't walmarts be burned to the ground for offering items at a serious discount to the mom and pops down the street?

 

[bp4life71]

Is shooting for free hurting the business? I don't think so. There's a "free guy" in every industry (photo, auto, carpentry, plumbing -- you name it). He's been there since day one and throughout history. He be there until the end.

I actually don’t mind the free guy, nor am I angry at him. When I was gaining experience, paying my dues and building a portfolio, I did a lot of free stuff. Down the road, the people I shot for at no charge began to pay me because I had proven myself. For me shooting for free was great PR, seeds that paid off later -- literally.

If anything is shrinking the photography employment pool, it's technology. 25 years ago, you really needed a pro to get a clear, sharp, well-exposed image. Not any more!

Automated point and shoots (and consumer level DSLRs) are delivering such high quality, idiot proof images that people are foregoing hiring us because the images they are getting (no matter who is behind the camera) are good enough for them. And if they can save a few hundred bucks in the process, especially in today’s economy, can you blame them?

Case point #1: I was in a photo store buying a lens. Next to me was a mother buying a DSLR. She had spread several pictures of her daughter's basketball game all over the counter while complaining that the photographer was charging the parents way too much for prints. Her solution: buy her own camera and shoot her own pictures. The technology brought doing it herself within her reach. Now I suppose her decision may take food out of the mouth of the photographer (and his crying kids), but so what. His kids is not her concern.

Case point #2: 25 years ago I ran a small printing and graphics company. We did quite well – until consumer level graphic programs arrived. Suddenly, people didn’t need us to design their business cards, invitations and letterheads anymore. They did it themselves. Sure, the results looked like crap (to us pros anyway) – but (and pay close attention here) it was good enough for them! They saved money and we eventually went out of business. Microsoft – those bastards! I should’ve written a letter to Gates about how my kids were cryng and stuff.

I believe that’s exactly what’s going on in the photography business. It’s not the free guy that’s shrinking the pool – it’s technology, it’s progress, it’s the natural shift of an industry. It happens in every industry. Welcome to capitalism!

You know what? I think you hit the nail on the head here. I never looked at it like that, but you laid it out...and it makes sense.

If anyone can make a good shot with today's cameras, why pay someone hundreds of dollars.

I get it.

 

[loopy]

I'm with JerryPH on this one. I am SICK AND TIRED of getting 10 inquiries in one day, and only 1 of them booking because they don't understand why I don't give away the CD of images with my session fee.

Personally I think with the way technology has grown, that it is time to adapt or get left behind. As years go on and technology continues to grow, more and more people are going to expect high resolution copies. I have said it before and I'll say it again, I wouldn't book a photographer that didn't give me high res copies of the images. If I liked the photographer, I'd pay the price.

Just look at the music industry, they will never stop people from downloading music - their only choice is to adapt to that demand.

I also see this in my industry all the time, heck they are teaching web design in high school now, I get many clients that gasp at my prices because their son/friend/sister just learned how to build a website and is willing to do it for free.

I say let them do it for free, you'll get what you paid for. Personally I'd rather not have these clients because they always tend to be the biggest pain in the ass. However I still get tons of work because there are people willing to pay for experience.
Same goes with photography.