While we're making suggestions!

[EBphotography]

I would like to suggest that just because you disagree with the way The Critique Forum is being operated, you refrain from ruining other's chance to enjoy it.

Just because you don't agree with it, doesn't mean others shouldn't be able to give it a try and see if it works for them. If it doesn't work for you, that doesn't mean it's time to take away from other's experience.

Lets remember that even though you may be skeptical, some people have put a lot of effort into making this happen, and really do want to see it succeed. Don't take that away from them or those wanting a critique.

Lets also remember that we're all mature enough to handle a disagreement without making rude remarks that don't contribute to a solution.

Eric.

 

[jimiismydaddy]

If you're gonna make comments about peoples comments/feedback and suggestions, please state who you are making them towards. Because if it is towards me, I am pretty sure I said nothing offensive or immature. Kindly let me no if something offends you(critique my feedback lol), and I can word my suggestions more appropriately to your liking.

 

[EBphotography]

If you're gonna make comments about peoples comments/feedback and suggestions, please state who you are making them towards. Because if it is towards me, I am pretty sure I said nothing offensive or immature. Kindly let me no if something offends you(critique my feedback lol), and I can word my suggestions more appropriately to your liking.

Not even remotely towards you. My comments are more about people actually detracting from the environment inside the critique forum, not anyone that is providing feedback in here. After all, thats what this area is for!

 

[terri]

I would like to suggest that just because you disagree with the way The Critique Forum is being operated, you refrain from ruining other's chance to enjoy it.

Just because you don't agree with it, doesn't mean others shouldn't be able to give it a try and see if it works for them. If it doesn't work for you, that doesn't mean it's time to take away from other's experience.

Lets remember that even though you may be skeptical, some people have put a lot of effort into making this happen, and really do want to see it succeed. Don't take that away from them or those wanting a critique.

Lets also remember that we're all mature enough to handle a disagreement without making rude remarks that don't contribute to a solution.

Eric.

:salute:

You are wise beyond your years. Well stated.

(Jimi: this came across very generalized to me! Nothing you've said here was the least bit offensive - feedback is always welcome!)

 

[mysteryscribe]

I would suppose it is directed to me... I have not been in the room nor said anything in there... what I say I say outside. I find it humorous and im sorry if that offends you. I doubt anyone has been dissuaded from entering or participating because of anything I said. If you have a problem with me voicing my opinion,vthen do what you have to do.

 

[PNA]

Good morning all.......

Yep, he's back and he's relentless with the suggestions!!

It is not, not, my intent to interfere with ones right to critiques, have their art critiqued or to "ruining other's chance to enjoy it". My intent is to demonstrate the offensiveness and childlike attitude of the stamp. I realize there are people who need hand holding through out their lives, I do not happen to be one of those and this is not the way to hold hands, anyway.

I have been stamped (four times, last count) scolded and "rulered" on the knuckles for posting my thoughts directed only to the issue and use of the stamp. I am very surprised and somewhat alarmed by the reaction of the forum's inability to discuss the issue. There has been no response to any suggestions put forth, mine or anyone else's.

Chase.... I know you own this site and many times I have offered my complements to you and the mods for the outstanding job everyone does. You and the mods, on the other have not been courteous enough to respond to my thoughts surrounding the issues at hand. There is nothing, nothing I have to gain voicing my opinions, my goal is to moderate the offensive controlling nature of the moderator's use of the stamp. Since you are the owner and hopefully still in charge I am directing my issue directly to you. If it becomes "my way or the highway" perhaps we may see each other around the next bend. I am respectfully looking forward to you response, silence is not an option, discussion is!

 

[Chris of Arabia]

Given the number of threads in various forums on the topic of the 'Critique' section, I wasn't sure which thread to comment in (I certainly wasn't about to start another one), but eventually decided to use this one.

I've not been a user of the previous critique fora (not that I can recall anyway) and I've not tried the new one either - as a critiquee or critiquer - there are links below to a small amount of my stuff, so you may be the judge of whether I'm fit to be either.

I don't intend to get into a debate on the subject with anyone, but having read much of what has ensued over the past few days, I felt that I would like my views to be represented. In an attempt to keep this short and sweet, I present my views as a series of numbered points with no great attempt to justify the reasons why I hold them:

1. I have no issue with the concept of the critique forum and what it is attempting to offer

2. I have no issue with the guidelines/rules presented for the critique forums, as they appear to relate directly to 1 above.

3. I have a serious issue with the way they are being applied. I find the rigidity in application, tone and format of "the template" massively out of keeping with the rest of TPF. To me the template is extremely patronising and almost deliberately offensive.

That's me done on this one, but I shall continue to keep track of how this progresses.

 

[EBphotography]

Given the number of threads in various forums on the topic of the 'Critique' section, I wasn't sure which thread to comment in (I certainly wasn't about to start another one), but eventually decided to use this one.

I've not been a user of the previous critique fora (not that I can recall anyway) and I've not tried the new one either - as a critiquee or critiquer - there are links below to a small amount of my stuff, so you may be the judge of whether I'm fit to be either.

I don't intend to get into a debate on the subject with anyone, but having read much of what has ensued over the past few days, I felt that I would like my views to be represented. In an attempt to keep this short and sweet, I present my views as a series of numbered points with no great attempt to justify the reasons why I hold them:

1. I have no issue with the concept of the critique forum and what it is attempting to offer

2. I have no issue with the guidelines/rules presented for the critique forums, as they appear to relate directly to 1 above.

3. I have a serious issue with the way they are being applied. I find the rigidity in application, tone and format of "the template" massively out of keeping with the rest of TPF. To me the template is extremely patronising and almost deliberately offensive.

That's me done on this one, but I shall continue to keep track of how this progresses.

I agree with some of what you've said here, and the formatting may not be the best it could be. The point I'm making is lets keep the suggestions and feedback constructive (like yours here) and lets keep it in the right place. Regardless of your stance on the critique forum, there is no reason to make fun of it or attempt to detract from the environment just to make a point.

 

[mysteryscribe]

I disagree fundamentally with the lets not make fun or detract from it. No offense intended but honest desent takes all forms and sometimes people need to see themselves in a mirror of how others see them. Maybe it won't change things but it lets the other side have a voice. And in a sort of democratic one man one voice situation it keeps the masses (us) from revolution. I have no idea how one would revolt in a forum but the point is the same it lets steam out of the kettle.

I'm sorry but to stiffle honest decent is tyranny. I don't think you mean that, I think possibly you aren't looking at both sides. Possibly I'm not either but at least we can all be civil and respect each others rights. The desent is out in the open where we can all deal with it as it should be.

Honest people can have honest differences of opinion. I would remind anyone, who reads all these desenting opinions and feel that the sarcasm ios missplaced, that sarcasm and levity often puts politicians back on the right path. Looking at themselves as Johnny Carson saw them, made many a politician consider how his actions would look on the tonight show. That is no more than is happening now.

Anyone who would like to take a shot at me will most likely find me laughing about it not trying to stop the other person. If you say I'm a no talent hack, you certainly won't be the first. If you say I'm not capable of playing in your critique section you won't be the first to do that either. So if you like have at it. I promise I won't put a faqua (sp) on you.

And has been said here, and image is never really finished. So the premise of your critique is flawed not just the execution of it.

 

[Peniole]

Here's my issue with the new format and how it's being upheld.

Before when I posted an image (following the previous rules) to get some serous critique and help on what can be improved and what I did wrong I would often get a remark or even a private message regarding my "not OK to edit" choice, in that how can I/we help you if you don't allow edits. In that regard and keeping in mind that now the image has to be a "final" image...need I spell it out.

Putting that aside I can see where you're going with the critique section, reducing volume and keeping it as a final critique before you show the professional world your image, and that's fine, the problem I see coming up is that more people who wanted real in depth critique of their "un-finished" images will post to the general galleries (which are somewhat crowded as they are) and you end up with less in-depth critique and often they are overlooked.

My suggestion please add a middle ground to the critique section for these so called "un-finished" images for serious critique and feedback, for editing, crops, improving skills, do's and don't of a specific imaging technique. The technical critique section seems to be a resonable middle ground but thw whole critique section is being very harshly moderated. Stamp stamp stamp.........Closed.

Hope that's constructive enough not to warrant a STAMP :greenpbl::greenpbl::greenpbl::greenpbl:
Had to add the smiley in keeping with the manner of dissent

 

[terri]

Here's my issue with the new format and how it's being upheld.

Before when I posted an image (following the previous rules) to get some serous critique and help on what can be improved and what I did wrong I would often get a remark or even a private message regarding my "not OK to edit" choice, in that how can I/we help you if you don't allow edits. In that regard and keeping in mind that now the image has to be a "final" image...need I spell it out.

Putting that aside I can see where you're going with the critique section, reducing volume and keeping it as a final critique before you show the professional world your image, and that's fine, the problem I see coming up is that more people who wanted real in depth critique of their "un-finished" images will post to the general galleries (which are somewhat crowded as they are) and you end up with less in-depth critique and often they are overlooked.

My suggestion please add a middle ground to the critique section for these so called "un-finished" images for serious critique and feedback, for editing, crops, improving skills, do's and don't of a specific imaging technique. The technical critique section seems to be a resonable middle ground but thw whole critique section is being very harshly moderated. Stamp stamp stamp.........Closed.

Hope that's constructive enough not to warrant a STAMP :greenpbl::greenpbl::greenpbl::greenpbl:
Had to add the smiley in keeping with the manner of dissent

Now now...stamps are reserved for special occasions. If you could get one anywhere, it wouldn't be as special, now would it?

But all kidding aside....I think you just touched on another problem completely here:

Putting that aside I can see where you're going with the critique section, reducing volume and keeping it as a final critique before you show the professional world your image, and that's fine, the problem I see coming up is that more people who wanted real in depth critique of their "un-finished" images will post to the general galleries (which are somewhat crowded as they are) and you end up with less in-depth critique and often they are overlooked.

We've tried to add to the Galleries without so much diversity that no one can get through them in a single setting - but it really is a tough call. Do you keep adding more and more? Or just one or two as suggestions come up, and encourage people to bump their images if they fall to the second page too quickly?

We go round and round on that one. If you can help us find a happy medium Chase will have to send you a goody from the TPF store.

A lot of discussion has surrounded the "okay to edit" tags, and as you know, the Critical analysis forum encourages verbal critiques - with the poster having to accept that markups on the image could happen - which is not the same as an edit. So every effort is made to respect your choice there.

We're trying (as you know!) to keep a pretty strict split. If you have unfinished work then yes, please do give the Technical forum a try. You might find it works perfectly for you.

 

[Peniole]

I thought I did suggest somewhat of a solution. Maybe I wasn't clear. I suggest a middle ground somewhat mirroring the galleries organization, just one difference. Only one image allowed for in-depth critique of that specific image, this I hope should keep the traffic down on the general galleries to genral critique/multiple images/series.

This could be put under subsections of the technical critique or in its place.

Portrait wedding critique
naturelandscape critique
.
.
.
etc.

 

[EBphotography]

I disagree fundamentally with the lets not make fun or detract from it. No offense intended but honest desent takes all forms and sometimes people need to see themselves in a mirror of how others see them. Maybe it won't change things but it lets the other side have a voice. And in a sort of democratic one man one voice situation it keeps the masses (us) from revolution. I have no idea how one would revolt in a forum but the point is the same it lets steam out of the kettle.

I'm sorry but to stiffle honest decent is tyranny. I don't think you mean that, I think possibly you aren't looking at both sides. Possibly I'm not either but at least we can all be civil and respect each others rights. The desent is out in the open where we can all deal with it as it should be.

Honest people can have honest differences of opinion. I would remind anyone, who reads all these desenting opinions and feel that the sarcasm ios missplaced, that sarcasm and levity often puts politicians back on the right path. Looking at themselves as Johnny Carson saw them, made many a politician consider how his actions would look on the tonight show. That is no more than is happening now.

Anyone who would like to take a shot at me will most likely find me laughing about it not trying to stop the other person. If you say I'm a no talent hack, you certainly won't be the first. If you say I'm not capable of playing in your critique section you won't be the first to do that either. So if you like have at it. I promise I won't put a faqua (sp) on you.

And has been said here, and image is never really finished. So the premise of your critique is flawed not just the execution of it.

The point of this is not a "tyranny." The point is, theres a time and a place for criticism. Feedback and disagreement is more than welcome here, thats why there is a place for it. The critique forum isn't that place.

I don't think the problem is that I'm not looking at both sides, since I've told Chris of Arabia that I see his point about the stamps, but I have also said people aren't even giving it a chance. Going in and purposely making sarcastic comments about the current situation, or even more maturely, using the stamps in your own posts, is not even remotely relevant in coming up with a solution. The sarcasm is misplaced, because it has no place in a mature discussion.

This has been said countless times, but it still hasn't sunk in with people. You don't have to post in the critique forum if you don't like the setup. Let that be your protest, if you feel it's unjust. But nobody is telling you that thats the only place you can post images. It is meant to be one step beyond the Galleries, where every critique is in-depth. It makes you think more. If you don't want that type of critique, stick with the galleries, there is still plenty to be learned there.

It can be compared to the "Beginners Place" and "Beyond the Basics." Both are for asking photography related questions, one is just more advanced questions. But no one is saying you have to be at a certain level to be posting in either one. Similarly, everyone is allowed in the Galleries as well as the Critique Forum, it's just one is considered more in-depth than the other. Thats it. It's a different way of sharing your photos.

Nobody is being stifled from sharing their views or objecting to the current setup. What I'm against is detracting from other's opportunity to enjoy this different form of sharing. If it's not your type of environment, theres a little arrow next to "The Critique Forum" heading that allows you to hide that entire section from your index page. I do it with the film section, because I don't shoot film. I hope this clarifies my views, which I think do represent both sides.

Eric.

 

[Alex_B]

well, one could still post an image in the general gallery AND the critique corner ... and cross link them. that means having some of both wolds

 

[mysteryscribe]

I have not been in the critique gallery and I have not disrupted it at all. I do make fun of it and most likely I will continue to do so. I don't see the harm. If there is no desent nobody will listen. I am certainly no Che.

So if what you meant to say was don't come into the gallery or whatever you are calling it and make sarcastic remarks. I can see that. However that is not an issue not for me to discuss since I don't do it. But I reiterate that sarcasm outside that exalted space is fair game in my opinion. So be fairly warned that I am going to have to be gagged to prevent me from saying what I think is humorous about it all.

I am quite sure there are those who feel as you do with the power to gag me. That is their right. It is after all their forum, but until they do I will continue call a spade a shovel till I am out the door. But I won't do it on anyone else's thread except in reply to this kind of thread. I reserve the right to defend my position anywhere. Even if the statements are generalized as terri says.

I have a lot more I could say but we are diametrically opposed and it would be useless. We have both stated our positions. I harbor you no ill will and I hope you feel the same.