5D or 5DmkII or 50D

[Ls3D]

I like ISO 6400.

To compensate for low light or for quick exposures in good light? Just curious.

-Shea

 

[Village Idiot]

I'm talking about comparing the 5DMKII and the 50D. The link has images across the ISO range of both. The 5D MKII handle noise better.

5D MKII Press release

Canon, the first company to introduce a full-frame digital camera, has improved the EOS 5D Mark II Digital SLR camera's newly developed full-frame CMOS image sensor. Utilizing proprietary Canon technology, the Company has reduced noise and expanded the sensitivity of the CMOS sensor up to ISO 25600, which is three full stops higher than the ISO 3200 limit of the original EOS 5D camera. Although the individual pixel dimensions of the EOS 5D Mark II camera are the same as the 21.1-megapixel CMOS sensor used in the EOS-1Ds Mark III digital SLR, the new sensor incorporates an improved output amplifier and a more advanced color filter that improves light transmission while retaining excellent color reproduction. By applying the same kind of advancements in sensor design and image processing technology as the recently introduced EOS 50D camera, but at higher resolution and with larger pixels, the EOS 5D Mark II achieves the highest level of image quality of any EOS Digital SLR released to date.

With the combination of its improved CMOS image sensor and the powerful new DIGIC 4 image processor, the Canon EOS 5D Mark II camera provides ISO speeds from ISO 100 up to ISO 6400 in 1/3-stop increments, along with two high-speed settings - H1 and H2 - of ISO 12800 and ISO 25600, respectively, as well as a low-speed setting of ISO 50. The full-frame sensor maximizes the performance of Canon EF lenses, the world's largest selection of autofocus lenses.

It's similar technology, but it's not the exact same chip. Open up your eyes and look at the test shots in the link from my last post. You must be in complete denial. The 5D MKII has better noise handling capabilities than the 50D. That's a fact, not opinion.

50D Press release

The EOS 50D Digital SLR camera's 15.1-megapixel CMOS APS-C size image sensor has been improved thanks to the use of newly designed gapless microlenses over each pixel to reduce noise and expand sensitivity up to ISO 12800.

The 5D MKII's sensor does not have gapless microlenses. Again, not the exact same sensor.

 

[Village Idiot]

Read the question from the person needing help. This isn't a "Mine is bigger" contest. The fact is he is asking if there is proper justification in purchasing the 5D MII with its' added expense.

The simple answer is no. What is he shooting and what are his needs? Not, what camera is better. If that was the case, we would all be wrong and why not just suggest medium format?

Er...weddings?

I have both cameras, and in any, I repeat, any lighting situation with L series glass, there should never be an instance where shooting a wedding requires more than an ISO of 3200. Frankly, 1600 should be your limit and there is little reason to go past 800.

Obviously you haven't been to many weddings. And why should I be limited to struggling with extremely slow shutter speeds and crappy images when I can shoot at 3200 ISO with relatively low noise compared to something like a 40D or 50D?

These clients order prints as large (and sometimes larger) than 30 x 20. I don't care if you have the 5D MII or the 1Ds MIII or the 50D. Shoot at anything higher than ISO of 1600 and the client orders a 30 x 20 print, you're dead.

Not really. With a bit of actually processing the image, you can clear up any unwanted noise if there it's that apparent and still have an image that doesn't look like plastic and is free of banding. I've had clients order 30x45 prints. No sweat.

You are all thinking like photographers, not specifically as wedding photographers. The 50D is perfect. There are still those out there using the 20D and the 1Ds MI. How are their pictures so perfect? Because of their knowledge of lighting and eye for aperture.

And then again, I can can shoot and conditions and get shots that some one without a 20D or a 1Ds MKI could get. Plus, generally my IQ will be better.

Too many people think that advancements in cameras remove photographic skill. That's just stupid. I personally know four wedding photographers who can shoot using a 20D and produce photographs better than anyone on this forum (especially me). I am not trying to say I'm better, just know the purpose of the thread.

And I still have a 30D, which isn't much of an improvement from the 20D, which I've used for a wedding or whatever else. Generally though, successful wedding photographers will be using the best tool at their disposal.

It irritates me when people just use technical specifications to give advice. That is also stupid. This is a business. If you run your business based on technical specifications you will buy cameras all the time and will loose focus on photographic skill.

If you purchase gear based on technical specifications, you will buy what you need.

The smart business decision is to go with the 50D. For those who care to argue about sensors, first own both cameras and show me the difference using L series glass at ISO 800. You will see zero difference in noise between the two. Second, I will posts Canon's response.

But why? He's got the 40D. That's another small incremental upgrade. That could be considered a bad business decision based on everything you've posted so far. And how about you take a look at that link. It shows the difference in ISO between a huge group of cameras, including the 5D MKII and the 50D.

Lastly, anyone who believes the 5D MII is a better camera than the 1Ds MIII has never owned or shot with a 1Ds camera. There is no comparison. Technically specifications aside, Nikon's D3X and Canon's 1Ds MIII are the best cameras in 35mm, bar none.

No comparisons? Well, the sensors are both 21mp and the high ISO performance is similar. The weather sealing, AF, build, etc... is different.

And folks, if you are going to quote specifications, site your resources.

-Nick

That's a great idea. Show me something from Canon that points out that these two sensors are the exact same except for the size.

 

[Village Idiot]

To compensate for low light or for quick exposures in good light? Just curious.

-Shea

To compensate for low light. And since it's native ISO and not a software push, you can set the ISO at 1/3 stops between 3200 and 6400. Shooting at ISO 4000 when 3200 is not enough is great without having to go up to 6400 and deal with more noise.

 

[dtornabene1]

It is the same chip, both use DiG!C IV's. Folks, you are confusing chip with sensor. Read this quote from Village Idiot:

By applying the same kind of advancements in sensor design and image processing technology as the recently introduced EOS 50D camera...

Same advancements in sensor design and image processing technology, same, same, same. Yes, the pixels are larger, yes the sensor is larger, so. That is not what he is asking. Read, read, read. The thread is about choice.

Why would you upgrade from the 40D to the 50D, hum, let me think, higher resolution, DiG!C 4, it's faster. Just a few reasons.

Also, none of you, not one has mentioned the battery factor. Oh yeah, we are all quick to list the differences in sensors, did anyone bother to mention the new battery? No. Why, because all amateurs care about is technical specifications, not technique.

Of course I shoot weddings...and portraits...and for Jam Productions...and for Live Nation...and travel photography around the world. But I guess I've never been behind a lens.

No real professional would buy a camera based on technical specifications alone. You must hold the camera, you must consider, weight, ergonomics, things professionals think of. When holding a camera for 15 hours I'm I thinking about that great sensor or the pain in my arms from holding a cumbersome camera.

And sorry to burst bubbles, but professionals, those who have used film, would not be caught dead shooting at ISO above 3200. If you are a professional, you have the equipment making this irrelevant.

Don't take my word for it, this is the response from Canon, you know, the guys who made the camera...

Dear Dominick Tornabene:

Thank you for your inquiry. We value you as a Canon customer and
appreciate the opportunity to assist you. We appreciate your interest
in the EOS 5D Mark II and EOS 50D.

The biggest difference, which you already stated, is that one is full
frame and one is not. The EOS 5D Mark II does not need to have the
lenses used on it multiplied by 1.6 times because of this fact. As a
result, higher image quality is achieved. The EOS 5D Mark II can also
record HD video with its sensor- as opposed to the 50D which cannot.
The EOS 50D is also only 15.1MP versus 21.1MP on the EOS 5D Mark II.
These differences in these two are the major factors in the two models.

We hope this information is helpful to you. Please let us know if we
can be of any further assistance with your EOS 5D Mark II.

Thank you for choosing Canon.

Sincerely,

Jim
Technical Support Representative

Special Note: Certain issues are very difficult to resolve via email.
If your question remains unanswered after you have received this email,
you may call our special toll-free number for email customers with
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Note, nothing about one sensor being so much better in low light. Yes he mentions image quality, because of the cropping factor. You get the most out of your lens. Do you guys even know how A/D works? It’s all in the software and chip (notice I said chip). Yes, capture is important via the sensor, but conversion to digital is more than a sensor.

Let’s not loose sight (even if we already have), the guy needs better glass. Why in the world would it make sense to buy a more expensive camera without the right glass? Buy the L series glass and the 50D. Mid-year, Canon will come out with another camera and not wait 3.5 years to ante up.

Speaking of which, what to do when Leica lets loose their S2? These are technical questions and good ones. But, they are not practical business questions. You guys have lost focus.

-Nick

 

[Village Idiot]

It is the same chip, both use DiG!C IV's. Folks, you are confusing chip with sensor. Read this quote from Village Idiot:

By applying the same kind of advancements in sensor design and image processing technology as the recently introduced EOS 50D camera...

Same advancements in sensor design and image processing technology, same, same, same. Yes, the pixels are larger, yes the sensor is larger, so. That is not what he is asking. Read, read, read. The thread is about choice.

Why would you upgrade from the 40D to the 50D, hum, let me think, higher resolution, DiG!C 4, it's faster. Just a few reasons.

Also, none of you, not one has mentioned the battery factor. Oh yeah, we are all quick to list the differences in sensors, did anyone bother to mention the new battery? No. Why, because all amateurs care about is technical specifications, not technique.

Of course I shoot weddings...and portraits...and for Jam Productions...and for Live Nation...and travel photography around the world. But I guess I've never been behind a lens.

No real professional would buy a camera based on technical specifications alone. You must hold the camera, you must consider, weight, ergonomics, things professionals think of. When holding a camera for 15 hours I'm I thinking about that great sensor or the pain in my arms from holding a cumbersome camera.

And sorry to burst bubbles, but professionals, those who have used film, would not be caught dead shooting at ISO above 3200. If you are a professional, you have the equipment making this irrelevant.

Don't take my word for it, this is the response from Canon, you know, the guys who made the camera...

Dear Dominick Tornabene:

Thank you for your inquiry. We value you as a Canon customer and
appreciate the opportunity to assist you. We appreciate your interest
in the EOS 5D Mark II and EOS 50D.

The biggest difference, which you already stated, is that one is full
frame and one is not. The EOS 5D Mark II does not need to have the
lenses used on it multiplied by 1.6 times because of this fact. As a
result, higher image quality is achieved. The EOS 5D Mark II can also
record HD video with its sensor- as opposed to the 50D which cannot.
The EOS 50D is also only 15.1MP versus 21.1MP on the EOS 5D Mark II.
These differences in these two are the major factors in the two models.

We hope this information is helpful to you. Please let us know if we
can be of any further assistance with your EOS 5D Mark II.

Thank you for choosing Canon.

Sincerely,

Jim
Technical Support Representative

Special Note: Certain issues are very difficult to resolve via email.
If your question remains unanswered after you have received this email,
you may call our special toll-free number for email customers with
unresolved issues and speak to a technician by dialing 1-866-261-9362,
Monday - Friday 8:00 a.m. - 12:00 midnight ET, and Saturday 10:00 a.m. -
8:00 p.m. ET (excluding holidays).

If you prefer to continue to communicate via email, reply to this
message and we will respond as quickly as possible.

Note, nothing about one sensor being so much better in low light. Yes he mentions image quality, because of the cropping factor. You get the most out of your lens. Do you guys even know how A/D works? It’s all in the software and chip (notice I said chip). Yes, capture is important via the sensor, but conversion to digital is more than a sensor.

Let’s not loose sight (even if we already have), the guy needs better glass. Why in the world would it make sense to buy a more expensive camera without the right glass? Buy the L series glass and the 50D. Mid-year, Canon will come out with another camera and not wait 3.5 years to ante up.

Speaking of which, what to do when Leica lets loose their S2? These are technical questions and good ones. But, they are not practical business questions. You guys have lost focus.

-Nick

All I have to say is look at the comparison. The difference is quite large. If you're just going to ignore palpable tests then you're in denial. The 5D MKII handles noise better than the 50D.

Today's ISO 3200 in certain digital camera is equal to ISO 800 in older cameras. To say that a real photographer wouldn't be caught dead shooting at ISO 3200 is retarded. Go to POTN. There's over 100k registered members with many many many pros. They use the best tools available to achieve the pictures they need.

Canon's E-mail didn't say anything. It pointed out two major differences. If you want a real answer, ask what the difference between sensors are and how the cameras handle noise.

I mean, if you weren't in denial, you could just google for comparisons and photos from the two cameras. Hell, you could even go to the link I provided up top and see the difference.

Edit:
Here, I'll even provide a quote for you from the article

The comparison samples clearly show the Canon EOS 5D Mark II as a significant upgrade in image quality from the Canon EOS 50D (the advantage is not lost in the price of course). The 5D II's images are noticeably sharper and show more detail. The 5D II has noticeably lower noise levels - and the 50D's ISO 12800 makes the 5D II's ISO 12800 look good.

 

[davebmck]

I been considering upgrading to the 50D or 5DII, mainly because I want much better low noise performance at high iso. I like objective test results to help me make my decisions, so I look for reviews that contain this type of information. If you look at the reviews at popphoto.com for instance and compare the test results, you can see the obvious differences. This is especially true with the high iso results. The 5DII literally blows away the 50D in the category. In fact, the 5DII beats out the Nikons in this price class.

 

[dtornabene1]

We'll just end this right now and everyone can call me a poo poo head. I figured since we are bickering and all.

Folks, I own both, I shoot both. I love the 5d MII and the 50D. Sorry, but with L glass, ISO shouldn't be an issue. (Check out the February 2009 issue of Shutterbug magazine)

I don't care if one is way better on ISO, make the right business decision. HE IS NOT USING THE BEST GLASS. Did I mention that before? Yeah, I did. If you are not using the best glass, don't bother.

You guys can fight it out amongst yourselves. It is weird that I shoot both yet it is assumed I know little about the two.

To satisfy all, I wrote back to Canon and ask for their opinion on the two sensors alone. Here is the question and the response, you know from the PEOPLE WHO MAKE THEM:


Follow-Up Question:

I am looking for specific details of how the sensors are different.
Mega pixels and cropping factors are easy differences. Why would I
choose the 5D Mark II over the 50D if I were only comparing sensors. If
these are the only two reasons, then the choice is clear, go with the
50D. What makes technology in the 5D Mark II sensor better than that of
the sensor in the 50D?

Sincerely,

Nick Tornabene

Dear Nick Tornabene:

We appreciate your continued correspondence regarding your EOS 5D Mark
II.

I apologize you that you feel as though I did not adequately answer your
question regarding image sensors. The difference is in fact listed in
my previous answer. IF you need a full frame camera capable of shooting
HD video- then choose the 5D Mark II. If you want to spend less money,
willing to compromise with the smaller sensor and don't need HD video-
then choose the EOS 50D. Both are fine cameras and both use Digic 4
chips; a single-plate CMOS sensor with Auto Sensor Cleaning. The
difference is the size; the 5D Mark II is 36.0 x 24.0mm (full-frame)
versus the EOS 50D which is 22.3 x 14.9mm (APS-C).

Please let us know if we can be of any further assistance with the EOS
5D Mark II or EOS 50D.

Thank you for choosing Canon.

Sincerely,

Jim
Technical Support Representative

Special Note: Certain issues are very difficult to resolve via email.
If your question remains unanswered after you have received this email,
you may call our special toll-free number for email customers with
unresolved issues and speak to a technician by dialing 1-866-261-9362,
Monday - Friday 8:00 a.m. - 12:00 midnight ET, and Saturday 10:00 a.m. -
8:00 p.m. ET (excluding holidays).

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message and we will respond as quickly as possible.

There you have it folks. The big difference between the two. Shocking as if I had said this all along, oh wait I have been saying this all along.

And Davebmck,

You are using a Rebel XTi. Get out to a local professional camera shop and try for yourself. Don’t trust pictures online or in magazines. It’s a real surprise the 5D MII looks better than the less expensive 50D. Its almost as if Canon wanted to sell more of the expensive camera?

People, try it for yourself. I have, love them both, but that is not guitarkid’s issue. This is a perfect example of people NOT reading.

-Nick

I leave you in this thread to fight with yourselves. guitarkid, sorry if this didn’t help. Upgrade your lens and buy the right body. You are in the area, go to Calumet Photo in Oak Brook and talk to Garret or Wendy. Tell them Nick sent you and you want honest opinions. They know more about these cameras than all of the people in this thread combined (including me). Good luck!

 

[calgaryjustin]

Hello,
My name is Justin Murphy. I am a wedding photographer in Calgary Alberta. My website is Murphyimage Photography - Award Winning Calgary Wedding Photographer
I use to shoot Canon, and now I shoot Nikon. But I can say I have every nice enlargements from my 1d mark 2. That is 8mp. for years I've been hearing warnings about getting to high of MP. I don't get why more don't see that per pixel quality is as important as quantity. For the money, I'd CERTAINLY buy a 5d. Awesome camera.

Justin

 

[amba]

As a guy "stuck" with a D70 for almost five year, I can't really connect to those with urges to step up a body every year...
If you had all the money in the world, sure why not? but when money is tight, for me spending it on lenses or good speedlights makes much more sense then moving the a body with few more megapixels.

Anyhow, back to the original question, and low light performance, Ken Rockwell just posted a few ISO 3200 comparisons including the 5D and 5DmkII, you may want to have a look there.

Some good collection of reviews (although I'm sure most guys have already seen them) for all of the above can be found at:
dprGuru: search "50d" and dprGuru: search "5d"

 

[JustAnEngineer]

Rockwell's comparison uses scaled JPEG images. That makes it pretty useless for comparing sensor image quality.

 

[Village Idiot]

You have to ask the right question to get an answer.

Thank you for your inquiry regarding the EOS 5D Mark II and the EOS 50D.
We value you as a Canon customer and appreciate the opportunity to
assist you.

Given that the EOS 5D Mark II has a larger image sensor, the image
sensor will not heat up as quickly, allowing the camera to manage the
noise that is produced better. The longer that the sensor is
active while the shutter is open, the more chance there is for noise to
appear because the sensor is heating up. Also, the ISO speed that is
being used can have a big affect on how much noise may appear as well.
Both cameras use the new Digic IV image processor with better noise
reduction technology that their predecessors.

Please let us know if we can be of any further assistance with the EOS
5D Mark II and the EOS 50D.

Thank you for choosing Canon.

Sincerely,

Michael
Technical Support Representative

Special Note: Certain issues are very difficult to resolve via email.
If your question remains unanswered after you have received this email,
you may call our special toll-free number for email customers with
unresolved issues and speak to a technician by dialing 1-866-261-9362,
Monday - Friday 8:00 a.m. - 12:00 midnight ET, and Saturday 10:00 a.m. -
8:00 p.m. ET (excluding holidays).

If you prefer to continue to communicate via email, reply to this
message and we will respond as quickly as possible.

 

[Village Idiot]

Rockwell's comparison uses scaled JPEG images. That makes it pretty useless for comparing sensor image quality.

KR has a new comparsion between the 5D MKII and the D3X. Of course the D3X is superior in his review. He said the Canon uses too much NR. The funny thing is is that the Canon is zoomed into 108% to match the resolution of the D3X and he's shooting JPEG with the in camera NR on....

The he goes on to say that if you want to waste your life infront of a computer all day using RAW, then that's fine and that if anyone is that much of a geek, they can do the test for themself.

Ken Rockwell is a joke.

 

[davebmck]

I saw that too. The first thing I wondered about was why he was comparing a $2500 camera to a $8000 camera. Why wouldn't he compare a 5DmkII to a D700 or compare the D3X to a 1Ds??? Sounds like the man has an agenda.

 

[Village Idiot]

I saw that too. The first thing I wondered about was why he was comparing a $2500 camera to a $8000 camera. Why wouldn't he compare a 5DmkII to a D700 or compare the D3X to a 1Ds??? Sounds like the man has an agenda.

It's Ken Rockwell. He shoots in JPEG and makes no sense.